What's the point in auto flowers?

[Baudelaire]

@Viva_Mexico

With moms, i can flower every two months. So i can get 6 harvests a year.

@Viva_Mexico I am talking about outdoor cultivation. By commercial I mean legal, professional agricultural scale cultivation: thousands of plants, in the ground. As cannabis becomes more commercial, raw flower will become less common, processed cannabis - joints, extractions, concentrates, and infusions - will become the dominant product. Once that happens, crystally tight and potent buds will not be the apex product breeders breed for. THC production per acre per year will be the benchmark. Autos will rule in that production environment.

It’s happening right now. Here’s a thread right here on OG:

New Breed Seed -Oregon Seed (autoflowering)

Hello everyone. Hope everyone is having a great season. I have been working with New Breed Seed in Cottage Grove, Oregon this season and thought I would share a few pictures of what they've been doing. Currently they are only breeding day neutral plants (autoflowering). These pictures are of quality control tests each row of irrigation (two rows of pots) is a different strain. Strange average from 65 to 90 days seed (direct sow) to harvest. I have long been attracted to this model. I think …

Again, not saying I like the trend. But it feels inevitable. Rob Clarke said as much last year at my conference.

-b420

[Viva_Mexico]

I saw that, they still have some catching up to do imo. They were doing shit like that in Colombia years ago. And yea, if you got into the 100,000+ plants per op you would need seed. I agree.

[Muleskinner]

@ReikoX

I think the future of commercial cannabis will be light deprivation green houses. I’m sure clones will be used for uniformity.

that’s the current situation - think about the schwag market though. It doesn’t currently exist - what’s the cheapest black market herb - compressed Mexican sells for what, 50 or 100 bucks an ounce. We’re talking about weed that would be $10-20 an ounce, maybe in prerolls. there might be a potency decrease, and other shit quality aspects to it…are Marlboro Reds the best tobacco? no, it’s regurgitated, extracted, re-injected garbage as Baud suggests. the vast majority of people use it rather than buy a bag of quality tobacco or even better prerolls like Dunhills.

Look how many peoply buy awful beer like Bud and Miller, which have rice in them and technically aren’t even beer. Most people buy this beer. They’re not going to balk at 15% potency instead of 25%.

There’s going to be a huge market in extracts too, producers will gravitate toward the cheapest inputs, they’re already buying trim in bulk.

I see massive combine harvesters, with special nonstick alloy blades, rolling over thousands of acres of blooming cannabis! The high end market will always be there too.

[legalcanada]

grow pot cheaply on youtube grows lots of autoflower strains … i think he pulled 3 lbs dry off 1 autoflower plant before …

[anon4675195]

Lightdep will be confined to high end flower production of elite and clone only photoperiod genetics. There is just too much infrastructure and labor involved. Autoflowers will take over the current light dep niche supplying sub-elite flower and oil material very soon, imo.

Autos have already reached a state that farms could mass grow, harvest, extract for concentrates/distillates/edibles more economically than large photoperiod plants grown from clones. There still needs to be work done to develop lines consistent enough to be grown solely for flower production, though many plants certainly meet that quality and can be highgraded out of a field.

Other benefits of autos include:

Intercropping, which is an issue in areas, like Oregon, where grow limits are measured by canopy size, not plant count. You can squeeze in an early Auto crop between full season plants that are harvested as the full season fill the canopy: http://www.newbreedseed.com/nbs-blog/intercropping-results-at-oregon-blissful-botanicals/2017/7/19

Staggered harvests: You can do this through the fall already with early and later maturing photoperiod strains, but with autoflowers you can now be harvesting as early as climate allows, potentially year round. You can precisely stagger sections of crop based on your maximum harvest and processing ability so that you don’t have a pinch point of staggering work at the end of the season.

Even if you don’t stagger, you can fit in two back to back plantings in one season in many areas. There are many reasons you may do this (avoid fall rains and get to market earlier than the fall glut for the first run, work with smaller more easily managed plants, limit potential losses by splitting the crop into two cycles).

As far as potency, individual plants can test >20%. Combined average for most of New Breeds current seed lots are 15-18% THC for big-leafed flower. This will certainly be increased with further breeding.

These are all primarily benefits for sun-growers (which we should all asprie to be, imo). Filling in gaps in veg (as stated earlier), staggering a personal crop outdoors (or indoors without a separate veg area), and climactic reasons also can benefit small scale cultivators. That’s why Autos are already relatively popular in Europe.

[Justin]

In my honest opinion it’s fucking lazy I mean if u can’t take the time to grow it then don t grow they can say all they want but when a plant is in full flower at a foot tall an u can’t do anything with it an to have a str8 uniform plant is not how plant genetics work in my opinion we spent years breeding the shit genetics out n now we have sorry to say and dont take this wrong pollen chucker are now breeding the weak genetics back in again this is opinion not fact I’m not sure I plan on researching it more but I understand the area maybe but u could always start them indoors an time it for out door planting so it’s big enough an muture

[anon4675195]

Justin, you clearly don’t know what you are talking about, no offense. The breeder at New Breed is the farthest from a pollen chucker of all the Breeders I’ve met in the Cannabis industry.

The decision to work with day-neutral or short-day plants has nothing to do with the quality of the breeder, rather the depth and direction of their breeding vision.

To write autoflowering plants off for ideological reasons, as so many breeders in the industry have done as well, is extremely short-sighted and ignorant. Autoflowering is just one more trait in the Cannabis genera’s book of tricks. Go ahead and pull tarps if you insist on being a masochist.

The reality is that the businesses that will survive will have the least cost of production. Pulling tarp costs money for infrastructure and labor. When the quality is equal, and it will be and already is sometimes. autoflowers will win the market.

[masterkusher]

I’ve bred autos before, and I can attest that I’m not just a pollen chucker, I looked for the strongest most vigorous plant to turn male. I can also say the quality in recent breeds is up there with normal strains at a reasonable price(if you know what you’re doing, what to look for, etc.). However I dont think that they will replace the photo periods by any means, because if I’m running photo periods I can control the veg, not only that I could also most likely get more bud per square foot in a 6-9 month period growing out normal photo period strains.

[Justin]

That’s my point there there isnt anyway a auto is going to out preform a photoperiod strain @masterkusher i started the thread so i could get others opions on them yes we all have are own ways happy growing an stay safe much love

[MadScientist]

As a newbie trying to grow autos, i can tell you, they don’t need nutes the way photos do, so there’s savings in the crop production, that would be attractive to most commercial growers. On top of that they won’t use a single watt of light on production unless they complement daylight with some kind of Leds during the dark hours, which would also save money.

In my case i chose to run autos, because i thought i would drop the seed and two months later enjoy a nice harvest, and boy was i wrong. Definitely not for noobs.

I do believe Autos will be the doom of our beloved plant, and it really sounds like a scheme by a “higher” authority, destroying the gene pool of all photos and flooding the market with autos does no good for anybody, Truthfully i don’t even like the feminized seeds, i have some but only because they came in as freebies.

HppHrvst

EDIT, i haven’t had much luck with germination and auto seeds. It seems to me they are weak from the start. About ten years ago and because of overgrow i bought a 600W MH/HPS lamp to grow and i was in the middle of the grow with no problems whatsoever and the plants were really looking good, i remember having like three or four females and their clones… Rapidly growing and very healthy, i think i was using coco back at the time. Maybe it was soil bu i can’t remember well.

[Muleskinner]

@anon4675195

To write autoflowering plants off for ideological reasons, as so many breeders in the industry have done as well, is extremely short-sighted and ignorant. Autoflowering is just one more trait in the Cannabis genera’s book of tricks. Go ahead and pull tarps if you insist on being a masochist.

interesting discussion for sure! I see both sides but mostly agree with Justin. It seems like a crime against nature! Ruderalis and forcing plants’ sexuality with chemicals? Screw that!

But it’s not like this stuff will be forced on us. I see it like a civil rights issue. The average Joe should have every right to puchase the cheapest cannabis products if that’s their preference. People only have a few bucks to spend, they should get industrialized autoflowering herb if they want it.

[ReikoX]

There will always be people who want Bud Light, and people who want craft beer. The only problem I see with autos in a commercial green house is the cost of seed. In the current market, they are $5-$10 each. Even if they produced their own, the cost and logistics outweigh the benefits of the quicker crop.

[anon4675195]

How are autoflowers against nature? It is a naturally evolved trait in Northern [i]Cannabis[/] populations.

I assume by forcing plants with chemicals you’re referring to feminized seeds? Which is an entirely separate philosophical issue. Although if we are on it, there really is no genetic basis to require males in a [i]Cannabis[/] breeding program. Selecting males is mostly blind other than for general traits like relative potency, chemotype, or structure. Removing them from a breeding program can get your selections to move more quickly towards your desired type.

Besides artificial selection, so any plant breeding really, is “against nature.” Who cares. The goal should be to produce the best Cannabis in the most sustainable way we can.

Bulk seed to growers is more like $3.50/seed or less from New Breed. The seed market in general is over-inflated compared to where it should be for crop seed. It will drop.

Autos will not replace photoperiods, except potentially for some large scale outdoor growers and where light dep is performed. They simply can compete easily in these situations.

[Baudelaire]

@anon4675195

Although if we are on it, there really is no genetic basis to require males in a [i]Cannabis[/] breeding program.

That’s what she said

I want to agree that this is a separate subject from autoflower breeding but I don’t think we know enough about the male’s contribution to cannabis breeding to support this statement. There is the phenomenon of sex-linked traits, and we are just at the beginning of exploring what those traits may be. There could be critical traits that aren’t visually apparent which are passed on through males - disease resistance, for instance - that could be lost in a female-only breeding program, apart from the inevitable slide toward dominate expression of intersexuality, i.e., sinsemilla apocalypse…

Speaking of linked traits, there has been a belief, supported by anecdotal reports, that ruderalis not only diluted the potency of Cannabis indica, but actually put a ceiling on potency in crosses that capped potency development in subsequent accessions. Does your experience suggest that auto strains can be bred to express the same levels of potency as photoperiodic strains?

-b420

[anon4675195]

Any trait on the Y chromosome is irrelevant because it will not be expressed in the plants grown for crops (female plants). Even if there were some type of disease resistance on the Y chromosome, it would only benefit the males, so who cares?

Plants reversed with chemicals are not inherently changed genetically, hence there is no downward spiral to inter-sexuality, as long as natural monecious plants are selected against in the broader breeding scheme. The only valid concern for female only lineages would be that they are unable to exist as natural populations anymore in the wild, which as highly selected crop species who cares, there are feral landraces adapted for that niche.

I see no reason that there would be a cap. Total potency is a polygenic trait. So it may be that more genes from high potency lines must be introgressed than people originally expected. There should be no reason this isn’t possible, or inbreeding lines to improve frequency and homozygosity of genes that determine potency.

[ReikoX]

@Baudelaire

Does your experience suggest that auto strains can be bred to express the same levels of potency as photoperiodic strains?

Some of the more recent auto flowers are comparable to photoperiods in every way except yield IME.

[Justin]

I feel the same @MadScientist I stay away from fem and autos I like taking cuts an not being able to take cuts would annoye me and fem is set a terr thought to me sprayying a chem on it and just don’t sound natrule lol and I agree the breeders like dj short or j.j from topdawg seeds had spent generations breeding there plants and to think ppl are now breeding these things back into the plant it’s why they spent forever back crossing an so on I believe dj short has a blueberry that’s f20 back crossed 20 times an for some person to say I’m gunna breed a rudiralis into it an call it an auto Imo again I’m not a breeder just a grower I also know males help pass on traits meaning u gain some pest and others genetic traits so to say u don t need a male then why do u say u don’t need males either it’s self pollination and that’s the most likely way to gett herms or u spray with colidal silver and that’s for fem n then I’m gunna breed rudiralis into it and get an auto fem well that’s far from natural an that’s how most these auto fems produced so for u to say u don’t need a male @Baudelaire is absurd imo

[Uncle_Al]

I’m really surprised the legs this thread has grown

[Justin]

It’s just something I’ve seriously wondered because so many breeders spent years trying to perfect the strains an now we have the new cats coming in an basicly rebranding under other names just glad I wasn’t crucified starting it lol

[Justin]

Are u not more likely to get herms from interbreeding or self pollinating