A little bit about surfactants in general

There are different types of surfactants;
nonionic, cationic, anionic, and zwitterionic (amphoteric) types.
Their charge or absence thereof dictates several effects.

Nonionic detergents like many polyoxyethylene derivatives work well with high ion concentrations (especially calcium) and may complex potassium.

The polyoxyethylene part is not readily degraded but serves as a moistener in the soil (it maintains a fine film of water on the soil particles).

They are relatively harmless and gentle with the plants and micro-organisms.
Many are often pretty active (that means the critical micelle concentration or CMC is low) and one does not need much for a wetting effect (like Tween-20); others are not soluble in water like sorbitane esters (e.g. Span-80).

Polyoxyethylene-fatty acid conjugates (i.e. Brij) are known as good penetrators but like Spans may stick too well to the plants cuticle and hence reduce its protective functions for a prolonged time.

Another group of nonionic detergents are the glycoside alkyl ethers and esters; best known for ‘no tears’ baby shampoos.

They are very mild and biodegradable and have a range of beneficial effects but to my knowledge are seldom available in pure form (apart form expensive research quality).

The esters are way faster degraded (to ‘sugar’ and ‘fat’) than the ethers and should be preferred when applied to plants.

The last common group are alkylphenoxypolyethylenglycole derivatives like Triton X-100; are probably as terrible as the name sounds, don’t suggest you use them on plants because of their lacking biodegradability and the aromatic part (may cause problems when smoked).

Cationic detergents are also known as invert soaps.
They contain a quaternary ammonium moiety rendering them less biodegradable and often highly active against micro-organisms like soil dwelling helpers.
In my opinion they are a no-go on plants but may be used in sanitizing a grow room (e.g. floor).

Anionic detergents are the old standard soaps and detergents (and there are also newer ones.
Traditional soap (free fatty acids) and cheap dishwashing agents (SDS aka sodium dodecyl sulfate) belong to this group.

Free fatty acids are quickly biodegraded but they are often not very strong and their characteristics highly depend on the counter ion; they are rather obsolete apart from shaving cream and natural soft soap (often used in organic farming as a pesticide!).

SDS and the more recently employed sodium laureth sulfate are amongst the strongest detergents (strong like with duct tape, a drop of soap often does the trick, but they may damage the plants and beneficial micro-organisms along the way.

They should not be used together with higher amounts of minerals (especially calcium) because of precipitation but due to the low quantities necessary may be used now and then as a wetting agent without obvious side effects.

Zwitterionic detergents are also pretty efficient but often less aggressive than anionic ones.
Many are semi-natural (nature identical) like betains (used as foam booster) or even completely natural like phospholipids (lecithin).

Mainly lecithin is of interest; it is highly efficient and can bind enormous quantities of oil in water (see mayonnaise) but even though remains very gentle to humans and plants.
It is also able to complex calcium without losing its activity.

Obviously, it is quickly biodegradable (a source of choline, inositol, and phosphate), concidered to be edible, but unfortunately not that stable (turns rancid).

Lecithin is great stuff but depending on the quality may need to be degreased with acetone prior to use and it may be tricky to form sufficiently stable preparations with kitchen chemistry.

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Interesting, so what category do saponins fall in?

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@ReikoX. Careful what questions you ask @shag. He’ll keep ya reading and learning.

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Saponins are considered as a Natural non-ionic surfactant

A non-ionic surfactant has no charge groups in its head .
The head of an ionic surfactant carries a net charge.
If the charge is negative, the surfactant is more specifically called anionic.
If the charge is positive, it is called cationic.

I feel that saponins are kinda in a category all their own.
Or at least… Natural Non-ionic detergents
Saponins also contain unique properties of emulsifying agents.

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What about something like Transport from optic foliar?

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Just got back from Google and came to the same conclusion. Thanks! I often add quillaja (high in saponins) to my gypsum and it seems these work well together. I do know they are harmful to fish and other aquatic animals.

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This is a good point, don’t spray saponin around your pond with your weed killer.
I almost did…LOL

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Well first we have to start with what is really in it…
If we do not know the real ingredients we can not really say how it works.
From what I can tell it is marketed as a delivery agent/penetrator.
What kind of surfactant they use is most likely confidential/proprietary.

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I’ve heard it discussed and even heard interviews with Denish(sp?) from Optic Foliar, and what he’s saying sounds great, almost too great, makes me cautious. He talks about both surface tensions and cellular penetration but not what’s used or what’s left behind. I was hoping someone else might have some insight.

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As well you should be…
They have been found guilty of undisclosed ingredients before.
https://www.oregon.gov/oda/programs/Pesticides/Documents/CannabisPesticideAdvisories/Tulsi.pdf

Well I am pretty darn sure they use one of the types I listed here.
Are you interested in the formula or just the surfactant they used in it?

I just want to be sure about it’s safety when burnt. I’m leery to the point that I haven’t used the little bottle I have.

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I agree, you should be.
I have seen a ton of recommendations for Triton X-100 use on cannabis.

This may be a similar surfactant to what is in other bottled products sold for cannabis including Transport.
They will most likely use what works well but at a price point.

I don’t think they would use a more expensive product in place of what they use now just because it was a healthier choice.
They are known to lie about the label as I have shown.
So trustworthy they are not.

We have to remember, some products are tested for food, but not for dangers when combusted.
It is good to see you are looking out for yourself here.

Truth be told you should be ok if used early in veg.
Enough time should pass for the product to be degraded and most if not all new growth will not have been exposed to the substance.

@ReikoX
You have been around Icrag for quite some time…
You may know who Only Ornamental is/was?
FYI
This is some of his work from my notes.
I do not wish to take credit for this work but I posted it here so we all may benefit.
It also adds a certain amount of CRED to the post, that dude was on it man!

Peace
Shag

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If I had to guess…
These substances here could very well be what is used in transport.

Are they dangerous to smoke?
I think we need more studies to know for sure.
My suggestion, as you already seem to be doing is…
Error on the side of caution.
When in doubt throw it out. :sunglasses:

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Does anyone here use Triton X-100 or the optic foliar products?

What are you folks using as a surfactant?
I use yucca extract myself, it is natural and I feel works well.
Anything high in saponin will work about the same, depending how you use it.

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Anyone still using Triton X-100?