Cool & thnx for the descriptionš
1 Like
I think youāre the one looking for an argument, Haggis.
1 Like
This is from the Haze article in high Times, It has to be my favourite part.
This belongs in the fiction section, it really does some it up nicely.
13 Likes
Youāre partially correct, but itās more complex than that.
Piff profiles predate 5Hz, and at the time the term was popularized - there are/were multiple profiles of piff depending on where you were, when and who you were copping from.
Donāt doubt that the Florida crew had cuts of piffy phenos or that may have been 5hz or some derivative, but again - there were/are multiple phenos or lines that can be piffy. Calling the flower you were moving by that name undoubtedly increased the appeal/turn over for those that were retailing and many people are happy to take credit as the sole source of a popular profile.
Correct, haze was never a pure line - but pure haze(AKA (afghani free haze)) was a pure sativa poly blend
@StoneGuru - you made a great point about the numbers and selection. My worry is that when you have indica present within the genetics, is it ever totally removed even when you select a skinny keeper? Iām open to the idea, would love to try some of the selected/hunted skinny sativa 5Hz flower you and hempy are going on about some day.
6 Likes
this last plant is fairly happy about finishing in the sunshine ,
me too , poor thing has some messed up looking leaf on her ,
but the flowers look good with plenty of resin ā¦
25 Likes
Interesting article!
Often after reading things again you pick up slight details you overlook ā¦ Haze Pics 1&3 look quite different in terms of flower structure to Hazes 2&5. #2&5 seem to be the lumbo dominant stuff imho and similar to Sams seedsman/tfd/Hz19 line.
Also interesting to note the tan/brown Hz (?thai dom) preceeded the green with purple hue stuff!
2 Likes
Itās a legit question for sure. I think the answer may be that it depends on how the later selections are done, so for example, just selecting for the skinny leaves in your hybrid wonāt necessarily get you close to the type of high of the original, and on the flip side; some of the plants with broader leaves; may not necessarily have that heavy indica stone or the muddy effect you can get from some hybrids. This would seem to indicate the likelihood that plant morphology and cannabinoid production are probably only loosely linked and are likely co-evolved but mostly independent traits. Of course there are a whole host of other things that could also come into play, terpenes, the ratio of the particular cannabinoids and probably many others. Personally I feel that hybridization is fine and can be a really useful tool for development, so long as the original lines and not lost or substituted in the process. The problem is when breeders claim to have something untouched, when itās not.
Case in point is Durban Poison which is still advertised as a pure sativa landrace.
Well pigs ass It is, itās neither pure, nor a landrace and so the danger is that these genetics replace and pollute anything that might be the real āDurbanā. I like a lot of ACEās gear, but I donāt like them claiming them as 100% Sativa when itās blindingly obvious from the first set of leaves that theyāre not.
I guess if making hybrids is your thing (as opposed to modern poly hybrids) , then you also kinda need to keep your breeding lines pure for them to be of use.
Nice, is that carrying seeds or do they just have large calyxās like that?
Man I bet you are enjoying that sunshine, must have been one of the wettest 12 months on record up there!
6 Likes
God tell me whatās in this cone youāre on fire lol
For the considerations on the feral state, donāt worry i spotted your care to precisely talk only about artificial leverages. And fck i appreciate this in this kind of discussion.
But ā¦ 
, and i donāt play the āexception make the ruleā at all be sure on this, there is cases where the epigenetics factors are so strong (in regard of the rate of seeds/specimens surviving) that they outperform an human printfoot. Like with the Zamal (of Reunion island i should precise).
Iām supposed to invoke Roms for a skilled contradiction but i consider this cultivar also as an hybrid of indian-thai (bengali trades) / africaan cultivars. Wich complicate even more the consideration. Roms consider it as (almost) endemic to Magadascar, another island where this cultivar ānaturally growā too, for the sake of the Coubertin spirit.
On another plan, i imported a cultivar that i adapted to a strict opposite environment (then strong epigenetic factors). From the west africa, hidden generally in the cocoa crops, to swiss alps without any transition or any shadow lol
These extreme cases have put some water in my wine i must say, and i started to consider that just āmovingā a cultivar even naturally (in the path of fauna) can generate even more artificial patterns and balances than humans if the destination increase drastically the lethal factors. Yeah itās vicious, right ?
It donāt change that i adopted your considerations during the journey donāt get me wrong, i just learned that some strong terroirs can be printed at a point to just react like an artificial stabilization to maintain. Or to replace by another set of dominances (in the swiss case, where they finished to flower the feet in the snow lol)
Totally agree for the equilibrium counteracting homozygosity , and donāt get mad : even with more āagronomicā lines. I screened a bunch of this continent and from the baobab to short hashplants ā¦ the pattern is what i will call a āperpetual F3ā repartition. Even if it make cry those that donāt adapt Mendelism to the actual state of the art in genetic.
Not smoking this night, i hope it make sense ^^
3 Likes
Piff didnāt hit New York until 1993 video of someone that was there and that sold Piff.
In the first minute, White Boy Kev gives the Date when Haze first hit NY.
There is a Video of the original grower of the Cuban Black (5HzC) in Florida somewhere, if I find it, Il post it.
This is a good informative video of the Piff History also.
17.30 some discussion of what the Dominicans were growing.
6 Likes
I smoked the Miami Haze in high school in the early 90ās. It was shipped to New York and grown in the Everglades indoors by the Latin gangs. It was the best stuff around by a long shot. Was definitely not a pure haze because it yielded tons on big plants under 1000w HPS. Itās what everyone calls black or piff just different phenos. It hit so hard you would cough on every hit. I think the cuttings lost some of their vigor and potency over time though. You canāt get the real thing unless you have a time machine unfortunately
7 Likes
hey mate ,
im dubious on that caladonian too ,
there are no landaces from there ,
so if a landrace was taken there from somewhere else ,
its a heirloom and lost its title as landrace ,
im not sure if those fellas are up with that though ā¦
and no seeds in that girl , just swollen calyxes ,
shes mostly ready , but a few branches are not ,
so ill probably just yank her out anyhow once there is room in the hanging area ,
just pulled down 2 large girls about 4 days ago ā¦
so happy about the sun man ,
the threats to move seemed to have done the trick , haha ā¦
7 Likes
What was the aroma like?
1 Like
You make perfect sense and I agree completely. 
2 Likes
For sure, I can see that itās completely possible to have different phenotypes depending on a particular environment, even clones can be very different,to the point that sometimes they donāt even appear to look like the same plant. I guess it kinda makes sense for them to be plastic enough to adapt to the environment at the individual level vs only at the population level, a bit like being able to put on a different outfit depending on the conditions.
As to how those epigenetic traits are inherited? No clue if Iām honest lol. Somehow. Maybe. Sometimes?
You made perfect sense btw.
Itās probably all down to sales man, they probably sell more of them by calling them ālandracesā instead of heirlooms, and also claiming 100% purity than a long explanation of their actual process of hybridizing to an indica and then back crossing. IMO itās just mislabeling and a bit deceptive when they donāt need to be I guess.
Man, just surviving up there is a noble fight when itās like that, Iāve literally stood in the rain like some cray cray and yelled at the sky after 2 months of non stop miserable drizzle. Itās like living in environmental solitary confinementā¦ with only mould for company lol. Should be nice for a bit now for you hopefully 
Haha, I donāt want to be the colloquialism cop or anything but I believe there is usually some reference to both the size and the colour of the said dogā¦ see here:
6 Likes
Iām from MA and Iāve been searching for the haze I had around 05-06ish and Iāve found itā¦ it was actually found in my home town LOL. I think alot of people that search for a certain haze around that era are looking for āHaleyās cometā they claim itās a Washington heights s1, which would make the cut more popular if it wasnāt dubbed as Haleyās comet IMOā¦
Ryno
6 Likes
Bite me! 
12 Likes
Iām not the best at describing flavors and I was a kid almost 35 years ago but if you can imagine an expansive almost menthol flavor that you can feel blowing up in your lungs. Itās impossible to hold in very long. A mix between mint and some kind of weird exotic incense. You just know it when you smell it. I havenāt had anything like it again and Iāve seen a lot of buds since that time.
4 Likes
I call it conclusions for me, but i canāt share it as conclusions āopenlyā in all honesty. The simple fact to never have really worked south-americans in their spectrum totally annihilate any tempt. Well as usual with these discussions, when it donāt belong to generate a fake hierarchy in holders ^^ You know the sing, sativas with low rotations are very practical to gaslight.
On epigenetics iām more cocky and i guess āagressiveā for this new era : i just donāt believe one second to an epigenetic print-foot in the DNA. And on somatic drifts, actually trying to prove to myself that it exist lol
But lethal pressure and big difference in pollenās grains quality inside the same genotype (or germination rate like Zamal) ā¦ hell yeah. For me itās no longer a mystery. The epigenetic operating this way a funnel for the genotype, giving the impression of homozygosity sometimes (my point on our shared point) but also restricting for good the expressions. Mechanically, and not genetically.
I donāt wanted to come back here without some dutchies flowered initially ^^ Youāre a click bait lol
2 Likes