Him got big brain.
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Youāre the epitome of Pay It Forward, so thanks for all you do. 
When you get there, if itās SSDD you end up choosing for the run, Iāll join the fun with my two packs. 
My experience is different than both of yours, so Iām going to have to agree with @SonsOfAvery on this one. I ran a couple clones recently that another member also ran. We both ran them with essentially the same organic soil recipe in City Pickers under strip LEDs, and then he also ran them separately in coco with salts. Our experience was so different throughout flower that I swore I had mixed up the clones. It turns out I hadnāt - flower morphology at the end was similar enough to see they were the same - but the flavors/smells/highs and looks are way different. The clones were Giesel and Bunktek Sour D.
Why not both? I think some subset of the people involved in this crowdsourced run should also make F2 as well. But probably only trusted folks who have experience and know how to do it. Iām not volunteering, but Iād prolly do it anyway cuz thatās how I am. 
But thereās a whole side of the community here who canāt get the cuts, and I wouldnāt want them to be completely left out of the fun. Like @SonsOfAvery already said. 
That housewife pheno was the best.
Recently I tried some straight Jack Herer grown by a well known member here and, while it was good and Iām definitely not saying anything bad about them or their grow, the housewife Herer HP pheno in the pics above was light years better - much more potent, much more UP and a longer duration high, much brighter Jack terps, and that Jack terpinolene mango almost sharpie flavor for days. I donāt like to look backwards very much, but that Herer HP #4 was one of the top five most potent Iāve ever grown, and I wish I hadnāt lost it due to crazy landlord issues. Oh well. 
But, that plant is one of the reasons why I like bodhiās now retired 88g13hp male so much - he usually lets the mom shine through while improving every aspect of it. You just have to hunt a pack or two to find something special.
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This is awesome to know, as I have crosses with other paternal lines from Bodhi like OMG, Strawberry Milk, SSDD, and Wookie.
But the majority of my collection of bodhi packs are definitely 88G13HP crosses.
I got a few cuts to keep as mothers not long ago so while Iām waiting on the moms to get bigger to take a few cuts of each, Iāll pop a pack of bodhi to veg a little bit to be ready to flip alongside that first round of rooted clones as I have the space to run both and it would be fun to have 3 flavors going as my area is a bit limited selection wise even in the dispensaries here.
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The plant is basically a physical expression of its genetic code. Expression of that DNA is going to be very dependent on environmental factors. It is how the plant ādecidesā how to respond to a given environmental stimuli.
Assuming we are indoor and have control over our environment and feed, the biggest variables we will be influencing will be:
Transpiration
Photosynthesis rate
Metabolism
Nutrient uptake
Each plant requires different values for its absolute best expression.
You manipulate those with all the tools you have available. Temp, RH, DLI, VWC, ECpw, CO2, drydown rates, etc. The extent that things can be pushed depends on how tolerant a strain is to stress.
Sour is one of those absolutely finicky plants that needs perfection to express properly. One of those plants that was renamed and fought over because we just didnāt know how this worked back then. Turns out all these different plants are the same cut grown in different environments.
Which did you like more? Organic or salts?
I find that salts often overfeeds, organic is prone to underfeeding.
Also yeah 88g13hp is the bomb.
I ran TK x Dragon Energy and Black Triangle x Dragon Energy side by side during a hunt. The DE male is very dominant. The TK was totally drowned out, lots of resin but not much smell or taste. Black Triangle came through in the cross with a ton of incredible expressions.
I have also had so-so luck with other TK crosses. Seems to lose its profile in exchange for resin and density/size.
I have a hunch that 88g13hp may help pull mom traits forward in breeding projects, so my next hunt is focusing on finding awesome OG x 88g13hp phenos.
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Iām liking Triple Sunshine a lot more than anything I encountered in a pack of Black Triangle.
Thatās my fall project as well, but low numbers sadly. The few OG x 88g13hp crosses Iāve tried have been really nice (Redeye Jedi & Devilās HP).
Redeye Jedi - Skywalker
Secret Chief - SFV
Devilās HP - Diablo
Spirit HP - Ghost
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Iāve been hearing this for a while now and the more I think about it, the more Iām skeptical. And I only say that because up until about 2011, it wasnāt difficult at all to find really good, very tasty Sour Diesel; the Sour that had that ātrueā SD mouth-coating,āflavor changes and evolves for thirty minutes after smoking itā flavor. Until 2011/12, thatās all I ever got, no matter where I bought it from, every time I blazed it. I find it hard to believe that every single time I bought Sour Diesel (which was often), it was grown in the perfect conditions to achieve that flavor.
But maybe it was, I dunno. This idea of,āOh, Sour Dieselā¦ Well, you knowā¦ It has to be grown perfectly in order for it to taste like Sour Diesel,ā seems to be a new one that Iāve only been hearing in the last few years, though. I mean, Iāve always heard that she was a little āfinickyā to grow, kind of āneedyā or whatever, but no matter what, it always tasted like Sour Diesel. Or it used to, anyway.
Do you think itās possible that rather than the DE male being dominant, maybe TK is just kind of recessive in crosses? I only ask because Iāve grown a few DE hybrids (C. Gold, Mexican Death Sativa and, uh, Sour Diesel, actually haha!) and didnāt have any trouble finding female-dominant plants, even from my limited selection of, like, two or even one female haha. One of the two C. Gold plants turned out very female-dominant; both Mexican Death plants also did. The one Sour Diesel x DE I grew actually looked very, very āSour,ā but the flavor wasnāt happening.
Maybe because I grew her really shitty hahaā¦
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TOLOSIAN BUD {F-1}
DECAPITATION * OX
love star trex sense i was a child.
HAHAHAHA ā¦
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I think there actually was an easy to run yet low yielding sour d cut that was passed around and had consistent quality. Same with Skunk. Sorta like the real Z cut is a slow grower/vegger but its great if run decently, and there is a commercial cut that needs perfect runs to pull good flavor.
I think what are passed around now are S1 and hybrid selections from early sour d repro work, and each one is known as a different sour d.
I find that we can steer hybrids towards one parent or another if the cross is decently balanced. So these hybrid cuts have to be run āperfectlyā to push them towards the sour d side of the lineage? And they are often boofed out.
I think the original cut is tightly held or gone. Now there are just a handful of sorta okay almost sour phenos that are all claimed to be āthe oneā that throw out insane variation in different environments.
Regarding DE: I think you are right about DE being more of a middle of the road pheno in dominance, I wasnt really considering how dominant the close to landrace stuff is. I have only really hunted it paired with more recessive plant types like kushes and chems so yeah, 100% right on there.
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Sadly, Iām inclined to agree haha. It doesnāt seem possible (or I donāt want to accept that possibility, anyway) that something like that would happen, that this unbelievably amazing-tasting weed would be gone forever, but I canāt come to any other conclusion.
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I did in my big greenie setup in like 2018ish? It wanted to be a massive outdoor plant, and didnt clone great, so I gave some bigger plants to a buddy and he got a couple lbs in 45s outdoor. Not tight commercial buds, but a badass smoke.
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Yeah man, I think its a follow the money sortof thing. Sour D was finicky and lower yielding. There would be a huge incentive to make it easier to grow with higher yield. It got hyped up, hyrbids were made that passed off as sour d, those cuts made more $$ and everyone switched.
Hype dies down, onto the next flavor, everyone drops the sour. At that time a low yielding not in demand cut isnt worth keeping around, and the sour goes extinct.
But the hybrids stay alive because at least they can produce. Less trendy markets keep them around maybe?
Fun to think about. There is a lot of work being put into the sour lines so I wonder if it will ever be back close to its original form.
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sour diesel has always been a good yielder. itās still out there, Iāve smoked it plenty of times in the past few years in NY. it will always be one of the best cultivars out there. period! brick penetrating aroma, mouth coating flavor that sticks around after youāre done smoking, and a disorienting rush of a high!
whatās likely true in my mind is similar to OG Kush, there are cuts that are duplicates under different nicknames as well as bagseeds that have gained prominence or have been presumed to be the real thing. collecting sour diesel bagseed here in NY is like a stoner pastime lol.
similarly to haze, sour is notoriously hard to grow and got replaced with easier growing stuff like blue dream in the late 2000s ny black markets.
indoors for whatever reason if you give it too many drybacks or have the temps go over 80*F it turns into hay thatās not even worth harvesting.
i say this not as some arrogant sour grower lol but someone who also cannot replicate sour indoors the way I want it to come out.
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Yeah, but you know the thing about that? The āflavor trainā and all that shit? And maybe this is just me, but I really canāt think of anything at all that tastes as truly remarkable as Sour Diesel. Maybe it was just bad timing or something; maybe itās just that people really, truly like ābaked goodsā flavors more, I dunno, but I cannot think of anything that people would freak out over more than the flavor of Sour Diesel.
I always did, anyway haha, every single time. Never got over it, never got āboredā with it. My girl still jokes around with me about when she asked me one time, years ago, what my favorite-tasting strain was and I told her it was Sour Diesel. She still, to this day, will ask,āBut does it taste like Sonic Fuel?ā
She doesnāt smoke much weedā¦ haha.
I have a BUNCH of Sour crosses, from various sources (Top Dawg, Skunk VA, Doc D etc), and now Iām sitting here thinking maybe I should try to pull something out of them hahaā¦
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I didnāt think you were being arrogant haha. Any info is useful info.
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Yeah this whole āit needs the perfect environment to be sourā is bullshit marketing for fake cuts that arenāt sour. Thatās how they justify the money they took from you. You grew it wrongā¦ Sure buddyā¦
I like that the Bunktek Sour name is stickingā¦ I canāt find the post, but I always heard that skunktek doesnāt even smoke anything he growsā¦
Where did the AJ cut go to? That was always touted as the Original Sour Diesel cut and in the last year or two itās seemingly disappeared and in its place we have like 13 other cuts now. Albany, Archive, Bunktek, Chaco, rezdog, riri, etc. etc. Yes I know some of these cuts masquerade or go by the other names in the list but, there wasnāt that many cuts just a few years ago. and like minitiger said, Iāve had it coast to coast, youāre telling me everyone nailed this super specific environment every time for the sour to even show up? doubtful.
I heard the AJ cut got renamed to Albany or something but now it comes with this special grow room requirement that no one ever mentioned for the last ~15+ or so years. Whatās that about the flower turning into hay if it gets over 80 degrees? Sounds like some bunk genetics and not the real dealā¦ Canāt say Iāve grown a single other plant that turns into boof if the temp gets over 80 degrees. That sounds ridiculous.
Iād agree the original sour we remember is probably gone or someone is seriously hoarding it.
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Breedersdirect is selling a clone of what they call AJs cut. No idea thoughā¦
https://www.breedersdirectseedco.com/Clones/AJ-sour-diesel
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Run 'em ! I popped a half pack years ago and the females I had were 10-11 weeks, lemon lime flavorā¦ looked like snow lotus leanersā¦
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I just tried a well grown sample of the AJ and it was pretty meh.
Also had the Skunktek sour bx3 and it was indeed one of the worst cuts I have ever run.
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Doesnt CSI use the aj sour cut?
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Hey @advancedbuffalo thanks so much for your input. Here are a few of my thoughts on a couple points you bring up.
Meristem is really only used to try to regenerate a plant from stem cells in order to clean it of vriods or rejuvenate an older clone. You are correct that this process could take 8-12 months. This technique within TC is for a very specific use case and would not be the primary method I would use to replace mother plants.
Also there would really be no need for shoot propagation as we are not trying to multiply to create alot of tissue samples from one sample. Our goal would just be to backup the genetics for a few months.
So in reality I would ignore doing meristem and skip the shooting multiplication phase completely and just place the explant directly into the rooting based agar to pop roots and hold tight for a bit. I already know some people who are doing this and the process to form roots takes 4-8 weeks and the sample can be held in the test tube for many months after roots appear or taken out and grown immediately.
In my mind this would be how it would work. All the TC related stuff including pulling the plants out of TC, hardening them off, vegāing them out a bit to take clones from would be done by me. the growers would just receive normal rooted clones that they would treat just like any other clone.
I may have muddied the waters a bit when I spoke in general about my thoughts that TC is the future of sending genetics because you can just send the plant sample in the test tube to your friend. There is definitely procedures that need to be created for regular growers to be able to harden off plants that come out of an aseptic environment. Those are probably not too far off. Cool stuff on the horizon for sure. Keep us all updated as you put your lab together.
Thanks again for your input! Its always super beneficial to hear from people who are actually doing the larger pheno hunts like we are hoping to do that can share the things they learned along the way.
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