What exactly are you referring to? Now I’m scared to flip to flower and get bitten by a dormant gene monster!
Only kidding but serious question… what could be seen as detrimental that someone has implanted In cannabis genes? Hermaphroditic tendencies is about all i can think of
Silly question here, but hasn’t all of this been worked out before? It’s not like cannabis growers are the 1st people to cross plants and make new varieties and strains. Isnt there a standard naming convention and process to follow when breeding plants already?
3 Likes
Yeah, but the market doesn’t keep track. That’s why we need a family tree showing the work that was done. Preferably with the traits you were looking for, before releasing the line.
if you breed something to F6, and then I pick up from there choosing completely different traits, it doesn’t mean jack shit that I’ve got F8s or F12s. I ruined all the work you put in.
Alternatively if you breed it to F6 and then I bring it one more generation and I start calling it an F2 like the jack herer ten posts up.
1 Like
We can all shit on phylos, but let’s be real. They did put in work, and they didn’t rip off anyone. They shit talked growers, and said cannabis growers are a joke compared to real ag.
99% of the population fits that trash can like a glove.
I’ve no interest in a soapbox, but filial generations don’t mean jack shit if you don’t know the plants that came before it.
F1s almost don’t exist, and conventional notation in cannabis is a laughing stock.
4 Likes
@Worcestershire_Farms i agree that genetic history is importent but these tests will return different results from the same sample and is in its infancy in regards to genetic relation. Determining terpene levels, plant sex, looking for matching markers sure but it’s not good enough to put together any type of accurate family tree.
I’ll look into what medical genomics is offering for that price but I haven’t been impressed yet.
Phylos flat out lied to it’s investors and the growers who supported them and that is not respectable in any business, they have ties to Monsanto and big AG and generally shady. There is another testing place in santa Rosa can’t think of there name right now, I think it’s point analyticals but the girl that works there reports all interesting findings to Dave Watson. Robert is tied to phylos as is monsanto. These companies want people to think there offering a valuable tool when they are creating a tool for law enforcement and handing over there data to the exact people who are working against those who want to keep good genetics in the public domain
@anon80727880 you can breed Terminator genes into plants that will not show up for several generations or untill they are combined with another set of like genes making the recessives pair and become dominate. Also plants that are genetically modified carry a marker that can be identified many generations later , gmo plants can be patented so if you were to slip a bunch into the market you could then later prove people are working with your property and issue a cease and desist order after you have given the market plenty of time to cross it into a large portion of the gene pool.
5 Likes
Damn… that’s some next level stuff right there. Interesting to say the least.
2 Likes
The only saving grace here imho is that Cannabis is already and has long been one of the most selectively bred and hybridized plants on the planet. There is likely very little resemblance between the original plants that emerged from the Mongolian steppes and any of the strains we regard as ‘land race’ today. Maybe once the initial fervor of the gold rush wears off and cannabis loses it’s ‘special plant’ status and is normalised, once again wild populations will become endemic to specific areas and through isolation and many generations of inbreeding and natural selection will be regarded as landrace. Though not likely in our lifetimes unfortunately. The real loser in all this rush to genetic ‘grey goo’ is not the plant, it’s us.
4 Likes
I wouldn’t say selectively not by a long shot.
quest about what we should do to avoid the problem of inbreeding depression:
I would say, for MY Taste, bottleneck-selection is often against what I want. So, if you ask me, i would often rather store Seeds, do nothing with them, or keep high percentage of Phenos (50%?) to reach my Goal: Saving Landraces FOREVER.
But everyone its own
Still, if you pay attention to that Claim of inbreeding Depro. , you could decide on a compromis, if thats what you like. Dont select only the Nr1 Plant of 20 Plants, keep 10 instead.
You wont get as much positive sides of Selection, but wont get as much inbreeding Depro. If a comunnity works together, it could be done working 2000 Plant.If you have famous Panama red , you can certainly be shure, you are already in a small comunity. I would definitly try such an approach out. Some Landraces/Heirloom have already high amount keepers anyway… Always needs slight pressure, SLIGHT i said.
If you want scientifical Evidence Landraces are made trough Selective Pressure BUT appear to had a certain Populationsize, read this Book from page 8 to 26:
Then it goes on from Page 26 about modern Breeding, and will compare it to old Breeding. Important info for ME, shall everyone do what he feels like. As i mentioned, bottlenecking/selection has some positive effects.
Put it:
Each Pheno kept more is one more step into Preservation. Each pheno selected out is one more step thowards stabilisation. Everyone can freely choose a Point on that Line
There is one Difference between Cannabis breeding and Other Plantspecies breeding: Old Cannbis Landraces/Heirloom, they are seemingly rare. Other Plants Species are sometines still grown at Sourcecountry, same as ever . Or there are huge Seedcollections stored in Bunkers… But OLD Thai, Old Columbian, its getting rare, or possibly depressed
5 Likes
If you think im going to follow down the same road as others often travel your mistaken. I like to try new things. I like to push boundaries and do things that haven’t been done much just to see what the result is.
I have one strain that every time I breed it, i out cross it. Others I am inbreeding. Some I am manipulating the epigenetics with revegging like you would see folks do with perennials, the best example is grape vines.
What happens with the epigenetics during the first five seasons of growing that changes the grapes to being non-vintable to grapes that can age 20+ years in a bottle? Answer that and you’ll be on to something.
Because it is happening when I revegg plants (revegging your basicly manipulating cannabis from a annual to a perennial. And within that process many things can happen. You were talking about landraces, there’s so many variations of climates, soils, bacteria, pest, diseases, altitudes and atmospheric pressures, and human intervention in these places are your beloved landraces come from. Revegg them a few times and see what the difference is. Theyve done this with grapes as well. Italian clones taken to Argentina developed into completely different vines. Some old vines zinfandels are 70+ years old in California. They dont produce much but what they do produce is much different then younger zinfandels. And the growers of these grapes have them to a point were the vines would not survive in the wild without human introvention. We have done the opposite with cannabis constantly breeding the way it has naturally happened for thousands of years as an annual seasoned plant (in some cases cannabis is known to thrive in the wild tropical environments revegging on their own like La Reunion Island.)
3 Likes
Plants have many genes that can be turned on or off depending on many understood and non understood factors. Recording these things in regards to cannabis especially the specific strains your growing will give you the ability to really dial them in and get the plant to perform at it’s absolute best for what you want from it. Some like high heat sone like low , some like standard npk feed regimines while others prefer more complex organic substances or mineral heavy mixes. I’ve heard of the second revege being called Kings bread and the first lambsbread. I’ve definitely seen some plants grow much larger nugs with some very slight soil changes. Keep on experiamenting and keeping track of what you do it’s the best way to find something new and or better then the last.
Oh and your young grape Vines have shallow root systems that feed from a different soil profile then older more deeply rooted ones. This is such a drastic difference that wine makers on the central coast have been grafting new Vines on to old root stocks with huge success. It’s all about the age of the roots and there depth. You get acidic grapes the first few years due to the shallow root system and it’s exposure to the elements.
5 Likes
Have you read into dry farming? It plays into the what their trying to accomplish in Australia through the epi-genetics. But the epi-breeding is more human induced droughts in the fruiting season but low stress during vegging. They do this for a few years exposing it to heat and drought then propagate new vines from these in hopes of making vines more resistant to climate change.
1 Like
Yeah I hear 7 reveggs was how the original chronic was born. But ive never read anything about scientific terms referring to it. If you have more information i would be happy to learn.
1 Like
I have a guy who owns a vinyard in the santa luca highlands comming in monday for a few hours. He was upset he couldn’t make wine from the grapes the first season. I’m going to ask him what’s going on with the epigenetics the first 5 years that’s changing the grape so dramatically. I’ll post back what I find out.
@V4vendetta
I think you ment me when saying revegged Vines were growing more “viable” than original Landraces.
I think what you are describing, is just acclimatisation. And possibly you mistacke the expressed viability caused by acclimatisation for a lowering of inbreeding depression .
Inbreedng depression concerns a state of ability of futher existence. It means something that is inbreeding depressed is not able to live on from now INTO THE FUTURE.
Per example, the Wulf died out here, cause Human intervention. They had some few wulfes left in Zoos or such. They took a few and placed them into nature. They predicted that on short term ,together with probiphition of shooting wild wulve, they will live on. But they pointed out that they may been too decimated, too inbreeding depressed to sustain over the Future, simply cause the Geenepool was to small. In short they may die out again.
Also, i heard couple Times from individual People, if you bottleneck a Strain, it will produce more Nice Plants, but fewer Outstanding Plants.
So, yeah. Aclimatisating say a Thai may give you better results, you have to see all this Knowledge separate. Wich means: by aclimatisation you may have a shortterm improvement, but you also prevent the trippiest oustanding Thai to emerge. The trippiest outstanding thai may not be able to express in California anyway. And by acclimatyzing you may get trippier Thai expressing in California, than unadulterated Thai, you get possibly the best Thai FOR California Climate. But you also may depressed the Genetic. This means that your California-acclimted-Thai, will not produce as Outstanding Phenos as original Thai IN ANY PLACE OF THE WORLD. Grow this adultered Line in Thailand, and it will not produce as Outstanding Phenos as good as original Thai. Or back-acclimatize it, it still wont perform as Outstanding Phenos in Thailand.
I say, modern breeding may be good for acclimatisation, but principially Selection/Bottlenecking can do damage aswell. This damage is not well studied, but i hear it reported, studied. And its seen extraorbitant hard to bring it back. I mean literally ouverhuman. Never heard someone doing that, never
Thats why you could do this thing Separate. Most will do open polliantion, not work on preservation, and just work on acclimatisation/stabilisation.
Any aclimatisation/stabilisation, any bottleneking might not concern preservation. You may have heightend “vigor”, but that inbreeding depro. you have aswell with it
2 Likes
I thank you for listening and trying to proove/debunk it. And in the end i cant tell you what happend with the vines. But in the end i can tell you what science says. Science says Landraces were Selected BUT from/of a wider Population, not just 2, 3 Plant inbreed for ages. Thats written in that book i linked shortly, and heard it elswere. And who made the trippiest Thai ever? Thai People or biologists? Thanks for your critical thinking , thats cool!
2 Likes
Always here to lend an ear. My hands aint what they used to be.
1 Like
@dudfinklesteine eat your heart out
Being new here, I am definitely stepping up my knowledge with all of your help. When I first started learning about the phenotypes, and strain stability, my initial knee jerk reaction was disappointment. ‘What do you mean my gg4 isn’t gg4???’, but now that I have had some time to process what I’ve learned to this point, and I am starting to look at it a little differently.
Firstly, there is absolutely nothing I can do if my seeds, or even the smoke in the past, was not true whatever. I’m sure all my old dealers are highly reputable gentleman who would never mislabel a bag for a sale… It is a little disappointing to find out some of the seeds I have are misrepresented re-makes, and not even a random phenotype, but you live and you learn.
Secondly, moving forward, if these are unstable beans with lots of phenotypes in the packs that I have, that seems more like a treasure box with options to explore. It may not be as straight forward as a seed that I know has a bomb pheno, but that wont teach me as much. Maybe I am misunderstanding still, and I’m missing something. Opinions?
4 Likes
The way I describe it is; the strain name is like a family’s last name.
Sometimes you buy a pack of Phoenix expecting River, and you end up with Joaquin.
5 Likes