Would the backcross not eventually be considered a landrace as well when the % gets over a certain level or is it disqualified somehow compared to the H’s?
seems to me that just a male and a female would be variation and so not homozygous.
2 years later afaict we still can’t get it right as far as which is first when listing lineage. Male or female.
Here is where I started before OG. I went to the dispensaries looking for cheap seeded ounces. Found one and smoked the product. It was good. Bunch of seeds. Gave over 2/3 of them away. Grew a few and it was so awesome I will be back in there early next year to run those for more seed. And there were a lot of seeds. Not just one or two per bud.
I have bought seeded ounces this way on multiple occasions.
It’s a big world and could be…but I don’t think you have tried anything smells like @lefthandseeds BLxBA yet. Unique.
Should imply indigenous to an area of cultivation so I would say ‘no’ but that is just my opinion
Great thread. Lot of good stuff in here. Thanks @Sebring.
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For something to be a true landrace it needs to be a population of plants that are pollinated by one, or many, filial plants from the same population, over 25 to 60 generations (scientists can’t agree on where to place the finish line for landrace status, but I prefer 30 generations as a reasonable amount of successive filial crosses). The result is a population of plants with with a high degree of phenotype consistency, but the total genotype variations will be low, with a genetic biased together the gene traits that have been effected by genetic pressures.
No population of plants is excluded from being bred to a point of landrace status. Landrace status isn’t necessarily a desirable goal for a genetic population. Landrace strains often show difficulties in acclimating to a new set of environmental conditions.
Heirloom status is just a marker on the trail between F1 and Landrace status. Because heirlooms are between the two, they tend to be mostly consistent and be able to acclimate reasonably well to new environmental changes. These are desirable traits for a genetic population to have if you want to sell/give seeds to the general populace, with the resulting plants being mostly the same in appearance while still allowing a high degree of success in growing the plants across many environments.
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I’m wondering if any local markets exist for seeded flower of heirloom varieties. If a documented line of Columbian or Afghan varietal were sold with seeds…would there be buyers? Dual purpose so to speak
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Last year I ended up helping a bro with fucktons of seeded pure sativa, most likely Thai/Vietnamese as its so wet in the tropical area I live that’s all that will flower full cycle and not just rot… Anyway I expected it to be almost impossible to give it away… turned out it went like hot cakes because there is hardly any bush weed on the market anymore… its’ all cupboard skunk I’m guessing because hardly anyone can be arsed digging holes anymore… so to my great surprise people snapped it up… and i am not talking a few seeds either…like the buds were stacked with seeds. Seedy bush weed is a highly prized novelty, go figure!
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Ain’t that the truth, its no exaggeration to say that selective breeding has saved the lives of tens of millions of people on this overpopulated planet we live on. Landrace strains however are critical to finding genes for all sorts of things that can be used in selective breeding programs and probably why the ever narrowing of genetic diversity and loss of unpolluted landrace varieties is a developing long term problem.
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Are you running the goroka?
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Hoping to bro, had some germination issues with the half dozen testers I have tried…not sure what is going on with that. I am going to put the rest in over the next few weeks and put out whatever cones up. Happy to do a run of the viet black if all else fails.
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Hope you dont see this as proling @Slain, but what youre saying about diversity is exactly my Topic. My type breeding. There are only so much Strains out there of the old Gold. Mostly in western hands. And on my trips trough the Forums, i rarely , or never seen someone adressing genetic loss/inbreeding depr. in a serious manner. It is scientifical Knowledge there is genetic loss each Time you take less than 2000 Plants for just one single generation as “keepers” .
It seems possible/likely, that each time you dont use 2000 Plants, inbreeding depressions is at work.
I am trying to find the solution to this Problem, and it becomes logicall why nobody interested in it. Cause its literally a Operation, not a project.
So, my only breeding-style, will wether be a huge serious project, or none. If i continu and do such a thing, it could also lead others to do the same with whatever Strain they see it as justified. Its more than justified, especially for Cannabis, especially old Lines, especially SEAsian, The Middleamericans and Middlecafricans. Stuff is not around simply said.
Well, will i really do it…? I will do my best, and i will as next step try to figure out the exact science behind Preervation, the inbreeding depression. And then will try to advice someone probably in the USA to do it, aswell as provide the old Genetics. Im from an illegal State, so i have no other Choice. Its enough work anyway. Thanks for all your true passion, i like so much what you said. i agree.
A last thing: I aint saying bottleneck-inbreeding has no positive Sides. It makes Strains very suggary, sweet, glossy glowing, defined somehow… BUT i feel there are downsides to it. And it might well explain why many Heirlooms that ones were in, are out now… I feel its like a short serious glowing up , but after that, its like glowing out, you run into weak wrong, mutatiing, just uninteresting plants. I want to do something more precious (my oppo)
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I came here looking for an answer and just wound up more confused. I should try reading this before the Durban puff puff. 
But anyway, I just made some Jack Herer x Jack Herer seeds. Parent seeds from a seed bank. How should I refer to these seeds? F1? Generation1? Just Jack Herer?
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The first Paper in Post 1 says: if an Outcross is derivering from two very Homogen Plants: its Called F1.
if an Outcross derivers from non Homogenous Parents its called H1.
So the differnce is simply: if Parents were homogenous or not.
And they claim people use the wrong Letter for it , sicne it was proven by Phylos that most Plants out there are not really homogenous, so they assume most People misslabel it. Cause have you ever seen anyone using the term H1? So, well we probably should often use this H1-Label
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You are correct that most breeders do not use anything but the designation F1 for a new hybrid cross. We should definitely be setting an example, in using more accurate terminology.
The usage of an H is strictly a proposal. For it to gain a foothold in genetic nomenclature, it would need to be more widely used. A designation, other than the letter F, is required, regardless of what letter is chosen, to be a substitute for F in multi-polyhybrid cross nomenclature.
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Its an f2…
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It’s an F2; assuming the two jack herrer were both F1.
There’s also full-sibling, half-sibling…
Seeds should come with a genetic test proving authenticity, and a family tree showing ancestry. Without it, most of people’s records mean less than nothing.
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Honestly those tests capture such a small portion there rather worthless imo. There is no control over with portion the sample contains so unless it is a complete sequence it can show relatives as un related. Look into the whole human dna test kits and how unreliable they are do to the small sample size. All they are doing is selling people on the idea that they can provide meaningfully data when they really can’t. There are only a few places that offer whole plant genome sequencing and analysis and there very expensive with a long wait list. They are getting people to pay them to collect these small samples that they can then offer as a library to the highest bidder. Phylos is very flawed from a scientific prospective and the Galaxy is the worst way to show relation I’ve ever seen. Random lines connecting things in every direction because they have no idea what came first or how they are related , again with such a small sample size there really only collecting peices of the puzzle.
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I agree 100%. When I found out that they basically take random snippets and compare arbitrary markers, they lost any scientific respect I had for them. We’re easily a decade out from having affordable testing that is meaningful.
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There doing way more damage then most people realize by spreading bad info that less informed people will use to base decisions on. Even worse they seem to be laying the ground to support the story line of some of there partners and biggest supporters. A story line that gives certain people way more credit the they deserve while promoting false relations. All while collecting data that will be handed over to people who want to lock up every variety they can. Broad utility patents already exist and are quite scary.
I think about this every day , the only way to prevent it is to have stuff they don’t so they can’t claim it as there’s, the problem if you have something they don’t it needs to be preserved but by passing it around they might get it. There are people from Monsanto like companies out collecting genetics and polluting Gene pools on purpose. These things have been in the making sense the beginnings of hortapharm and all there subsequent business and government relationships. I beg everybody to stopping crossing everything to everything else that everybody else is already using and if you are keep separate back ups of the originals , you never know what will be considered there’s or what has some nefarious Gene’s hiding in it waiting to be combined with another plant it lies dormant in then wham everything is screwed. There are great and equally horrible things coming the way of the cannabis industry
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I disagree. People are dropping hundreds of thousands to get in on any other sector of the cannabis market. Why should they be allowed to cut corners because they’re selling seeds?
Selling $100 per pack of seeds? Put three dozen packs up. There are people selling $20, $30, $50 individual seeds and they don’t even tell you the family tree! For those five hundred dollar packs it’s downright offensive that they’re not tested.
$3500 to prove authenticity isn’t asking too much at all.
I’m sick of scam artists. We need to give them no corners of the market, no niche within which to hide.
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Test it, regulate it and then let it sit in a warehouse and deprecate while it was grown at the lowest cost possible to begin with. Say say kept it illegal thats plant abuse and I wont stand for it! Jk 
As far as these fantastic phenos people have preserved that are sometimes called elite cuts. You usually see someone take am elite cut and cross it with the best male from a well known IBL and call it a F1…but the elite cut is a clone only strain for a very good reason - they cant make it into a IBL without the male from the same strain!!! I see this often when growing out these types of “preservation” f1s but alot of the time i really don’t see a uniformity, it does happen - im not saying if you know what your buying and growing then you may not run into zero uniformity issues.
But what about the misinformed public? We just sit back watch people get tricked into thinking someing is what it clearly is not which were all too used to seeing. I know your always going to get 3-4 phenos out of a well open pollinated IBL. But alot of the “f1s” I see from new “elite” cuts are not true F1s. Because they’re not both homogenous. Which I do believe is the requirement?? Maybe phylos is right about a few things but they’re definitely not trying to help or educate people properly.
So based on this we should just stop growing all these strains because we cannot grow and select from 2,000 different plants at once because some theory say inbreeding depression is always the end result?
This is not directed at anyone. It just one man’s opinion.
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I feel “woke” now lol
Lots of good info here
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