Aight so next question. Are these five varieties available to the public?
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David Watson and Ma Dang do have info on Phylos.
https://phylos.bio/org/7vodyeor/david-watson
D. Watson doesnāt have contact info, but I believe he is āSam the Skunkmanā and you can probably track down his contact info.
Be warned that because both individuals have submitted tons of samples, itās not likely that they have seeds or clones available. They probably know where and if they are still available in the wild.
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Iām a huge fan of Sannie, and it looks like heās releasing an F9 of his Jack. I wonder how homozygous that will beā¦
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I wish they would map most strains on the market so weād have a database to make decisions on.
The start is good but in my dreams you could see hundreds or even thousands of strains on those measured genetic distance charts etcā¦
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Exactly. I hate that the cannabis seed trade is pretty much the Wild West right now, but Iām not sure if itās better now than it was or if it will get better. Hopefully academia will help us all out.
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I hope I didnāt detract from the original conversation. I wholeheartedly agree with your proposal Sebring!
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I know ! seedfinder is pretty good. Iād love to create somthing !!
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Seedfinder with these verified geneticsā¦
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@mcmuffin I expect conversations to meander. This is an exchange of ideas, usually while consuming 
cannabis, and it would be very boring if we all just talked about one facet of the topic, excluding all others. Itās actually disappointing to start a topic and not have it meander, because it means Iāve failed to stir your imagination with insights. 
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this is a very heavy thread. ive had to re-read itā¦ ive been breeding dope for the commerical seed trade since 99. i learned from the dutch and from the Canadiansā¦, but i guess maybe we all were using wrong terms this whole timeā¦
very interesting man. im wondering if i should start using H1 on my seed packs? If we start talking like this, thats how shit gets changed ya knowā¦
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Personally Itās hard to say , seems the industry is going with F1ās as the inital H1 cross, But Iād go with the industry until it changes by putting F1 I feel like if you put H1 oneās people would be confused but if anyone ever brought up you can explain! And us canadians are good breeders eh! I recently found localish breeder and Iām impressed with their offspring !
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Exactly. The new notation has won me over, and if we spread the word thereās surely others that agree.
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You are so right @deep_rob, this is exactly how it changes!
@StrainVenator as with everything itāll take time for a transition to happen, and only if many people find it useful. I believe they will though. Calling it an H1 instead of an F1 dismisses some of the misconceptions people have had about the stability of cannabis strains. I know when I started growing I was actually shocked to see 3 different plants from the same strain of seeds produce 3 completely different phenotypes, I had to go research what was wrong with my āF1sā. 
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Gotcha haha Just feel some consumers would be confused and turned off until its more known
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Formula1 might sue everyone 
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so if I throw 2 landraces together i still say f1ā¦ mex x vietnam is f1ā¦ but what about a hyrbid x land?
ie: my NL#2 x sinaloa mexicanā¦ was the first generation of this cross considered an f1? or an h1?
BTW, im so glad i didnt do my website or print packaging yet, so i have time to change all the text to h1, lol
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actually thats a bad exmaple, because nl#2 that i used was the f3 from nevil, so its an ibl at that point, or in the least, its getting close to being considering an IBLā¦ that raises anther questionā¦ would an IBL hybrid line crossed with an IBL landrace equal f1? ie: SPG x Malawiā¦
and would an ibl hybrid line crossed with another unrelated ibl hybrid line equal f1? ie: SPG x SK#1
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Youāve brought me to an interesting impasseā¦
A landrace should produce a fairly homogenous population, since theyāve supposedly spent a significant number of generations under very similar conditions. But according to phylos there is no combination of landraces that has yet produced a legitimate F1.
If we cross Gold Colombian with Sumatran Tuk Tuk does this still not result in an F1?
And if the genes that are variable are those that donāt define the cultivar in question, is it really worth losing that extra bit of the gene pool?
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Yes, I asked this question also.
"My confusion is that observation of uniformity seems to be effective enough to inbreed lines capable of showing f-1 hybrid vigor in their progeny, without going to f-20 and beyond and then confirming through a geneticist?
ā¦Iām wrong to assume there is room for slight genetic variation within a population? "
Iām not yet convinced to want to change established scientific notation.
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Anything other than a cross of two homozygous, for the selected genetic markers, strains would be an H1 cross. As there are no documented homozygous strains, all strain crosses would be considered an H cross.
On a side note, genetic markers are the sites on the chromosome where traits are determined, so the terms marker and traits can be used interchangeably.
Same answer as the previous example, H1 rather than F1.
Gold Colombian x Sumatran Tuk Tuk would still be an H1.
Iām unclear on what your question is here. Can you rephrase it so I might better understand?
I can say that homozygosity in a gene line has itās advantages, in that every seed breeds completely true to itās parent, however, it also brings itās own inbreeding detriments as well as it can have detrimental genes locked into it with no heterozygous genes in itās offspring to allow for adaptability to changing environments.
Just because all known cannabis strains arenāt homozygous doesnāt mean they necessarily need to be. We have already overcome much of the need for homozygous strains in the commercial industry by making such wide use of clones.
As I eluded to above, there is absolutely room for slight, or even moderate, genetic variation within a population, if you have the resources to run a bunch of seeds, find a great clone and use it to share/produce your stock.
Another thing Iād like to point out, because I think itās being taken defensively, while I believe it is meant more out of respect and deference towards the wisdom and expertise of the cannabis grower/breeder.
**The scientific community has in effect stated that cannabis is a special plant, both in itās use and in the practice of breeding it. Past and current cannabis breeding has caused cannabis to not fit the old nomenclature regime, probably because itās versatility and usefulness! **
The scientific community is basically saying āYou cannabis breeders have created this new thing that we want to assimilate into the old nomenclature system, but we need you to name it something that isnāt already being used by the old nomenclature systemā. This is cause for celebration, not alarm. Scientists want to work with us as peers, thatās a genuine honor being given to a community of people that have traditionally been outcasts of our greater society.
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