Gtfo, dude I would love to read it again. I don’t think it was on the original OG, I think it was on CW. Only things I 100% remember is Elite x Elite was in the thread title and Vic High was OP.
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This may be in the growfaq area here also it is from the old site.
What is selfing?
Added by: ~shabang~ Last edited by: ~shabang~ Viewed: 1106 times
Contributed by Vic High:
As the title implies, the main drawback to selfing cannabis plants is that you loose the male portion of your population, making future crosses difficult. Some think that by selfing a plant, all the offspring will turn out just like mom. That is only true if mom is true breeding for all the traits you are interested in. Otherwise, her offspring will show two phenotypes for every trait that she is not true breeding.
There are two basic models for selfing a plant such as cannabis the first one being where the plant is homozygous for the trait in question. Let’s assume again that pineapple flavour is controlled by the recessive gene pp. If we self the plant we fill get the following S1 cross.
S1 cross = pp x pp = pp + pp + pp + pp or 100% pineapple flavoured female offspring. But no matching males
The other likely possibility is that special individual heterozygous dominant for the pineapple flavour. In this case P will indicate for pineapple flavour and the S1 cross will be:
S1 cross = Pp x Pp = PP + Pp + Pp + pp, our familiar 1:2:1 mendelian ratio.
In this second example only 75% of the offspring will have pineapple flavour and the frequency of the P gene will only be 50%, a far cry from 100% or true breeding. From here on, this isn’t much different from a half sib cross involving regular inbreeding or backcrossing. It will take a few generations to achieve something close to true breeding, but as with backcrossing, as long as we use the P1 mom in the crosses (selfing in this case), we will never achieve a true breeding population.
What is recurrent selection?
Added by: MR_NATURAL420 Last edited by: Team GrowFAQ Viewed: 908 times
Recurrent selection refers to selecting for certain traits generation after generation.
With the interbreeding of reselected plants, the breeder can access favorable recombinations as well as stabilize traits within the genepool. Select your ideotype in each IBL, but don’t be totally reliant on the phenotype because its not always indicative of the actual genotype. Make yield and quality trials with test crosses and select the best ten lines. Intercross and repeat.
After recurrent selection is done, select new individuals to be the new parents of IBLs. These are then recurrently selected for four or five generations. After recurrent selection has been done in two seperate programs, an F1 single cross of the two lines (A X B) is then produced.
In reciprocal recurrent selection (RRS), pollen of multiple A males is used to pollinate ideal B females and pollen of B used to pollinate ideal plants of A. Thus A is used as a tester to select for the combining ability of B plants, and B is a tester for A. At the same time,inbred seedlots(A X A) and (B X B) are made,using mixed male pollen and the best females of each population. Store the resulting seed-- the seedlines with the best combining ability will be used as parents of the next RRS cycle.
The (A X B) hybrid progeny are simply used as visual indicators of the combining ability that lies in the saved seeds.These specific inbred parental lines are kept in reserve until the progeny testing of the different (A X B) hybrids has shown which has better SCA and will make the better hybrids. Since this is such a complicated strategy, good note taking and organization are definitely required.
What is convergent improvement?
Added by: MR_NATURAL420 Last edited by: Team GrowFAQ Viewed: 654 times
If you have a good single cross (A X B), and you know the vigour is the result of the dominance of growth factors, back-cross it several generations to A, selecting for qualities of B that are lacking in A. After two or more generations of back-crossing and selecting, IBLs are produced. Do the same for B. After improved A and B are obtained, they are tested in crosses and compared to the original (A X B).
Multiple convergence is improving an inbred by convergence of gametes from different sources. If A is a very desirable inbred in crosses, it can be modified in two seperate back-cross programs {eg. (A X C) X A, and (A X D) X A}, with the idea that the improved inbreds will be vigourous enough to use as the male parent of a double-cross.
How important is male selection when cubing?
Added by: ~shabang~ Last edited by: ~shabang~ Viewed: 653 times
Contributed by Vic High:
Basically, when you are cubing a mother plant, you are taking her paired alleles and making them homozygous for each trait that you want to become true breeding. Some paired alleles will already be homozygous but most of the important ones will be heterozygous in the case of an F1 other-to-be-cubed. Mind you this can only be true of those traits that are controlled by basic dominant/recessive genes. This isn’t always the case and sometimes genes can be codominant. Here is an example of the implications.
let A & B & C be codominant genes, d being a recessive gene on the same loci. Now for simplicity we will just look at the genotype and ignore the phenotypic effects of each genotype. Lets say our mother-to-be cubed has the genotype AB and the P1 male is Cd (both being F1s).
Notice that you can never really get a completely true breeding situation with this sort of gene. To fully capture the mother’s trait you must maintain the heterozygoous AB condition. Crossing two parents with the same characteristic AB will give the following offspring:
AA, AB, AB, BB
Note only 50% of the offspring will ever be able to recreate this mother’s genotype (and in this case phenotype)
Ok, now that aside, lets explore the practical issues of trying to cube that mom. Crossing the AB and Cd you the following combinations:
AC, Ad, BC, Bd. You then select from these to do your first backcross to your AB mom (creating the .75 generation)
ABxAC = AA, AC, AB, CA - 25% resemble mom in this case
ABxAd = AA, Ad, AB, Bd - 25% resemble mom again
ABxBC = AB, AC, BB, BC - 25% resemble mom again
ABxBd = AB, Ad, BB, Bd - 25% resemble mom again
As you can see, it really doesn’t matter which males you selected for your first backcross as they all brought you equally close to your goal. Notice that it will also take a sharp eye to pick out the special offspring that will take you closer to your goal in the second backcross. Hopefully this shows how difficult it can be to stabililize a trait caused by codominant genes.
This was just the first factor affecting cubing success. Also, it only dealt with a single genes and you are often trying to stabilize dozens of gene pairs when cubing.
What is an F1, F2, and IBL?
Added by: MisterIto Last edited by: Team GrowFAQ Viewed: 4301 times
An IBL (inbred line) is a genetically homogeneous strain that grows uniformly from seed.
A hybrid is a strain made up of two genetically unlike parents, IBL or hybrid.
When you cross two different IBL strains for the FIRST time, it is called the F1 generation. When you cross two of the same F1 hybrid (inbreed), it is called the F2 generation.
The process of selective inbreeding must continue at least until the F4 to stabilize the recurrently selected traits. When you cross two specimens of an IBL variety, you get more of the same, because an IBL is homozygous, or true breeding for particular traits.
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That’s not the one, but awesome post nonetheless.
Sad, sad world we live in. Fuck these people in particular.
https://dan.com/buy-domain/cannabisworld.com?redirected=true&tld=com
(While we on the subject, RIP Vic High.)
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Cant find the archive of the actual thread. Not super well-versed in how to use the Waywaybackmachine.
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Wow, reading this thread was so reminiscent of conversations I had with Chimera and Vic High back on the original OG and especially in CW.
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Ok so breeding gurus input please.
I have created my polyhybrids now.
Plan to inbreed bro on sis i guess but i also saved n stored pollen from the original father.
Whats the pros and cons to using that pollen on a chosen female of its own offspring ?
Google spins circles n never gets to anyone ever using father pollen on its own offspring.
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It’s just the same as a backcross. Though usually it’s the male that is backcrossed to the mother. You can do it either way.
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Ok thanks. So it doesnt bring problems. And i can repaint the next gen. I dont even know if the male good or not but I save cuts of everything as habit so saved pollen too.
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By comparing the babies to the mother you can get an idea of what traits the father passed on, and especially after this second cross with the same pollen, you should start to get a clearer picture of whether he was the right male for the job. If the grandchildren are not superior to the original mother, best bet is to start again with a new male.
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The pro is that your line will converge faster to the parent if you backcross. The con is that because the parent will be heterozygous, you are not stabilizing the line to homozygous alleles. So if you want to use it in a cross later, it’s offspring will be highly varied.
You can always combine the two methods. Use backcrossing first if you want the line to more closely reflect the mother (or father), and then inbreed to stabilize. They’re complimentary techniques that achieve different goals.
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Thank you for explaining that in such detail. 
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Yes. And that’s a easy way to mess up a backcross project.
For example choose a more homozygous plant to use to backcross to p1 for 3 generations. Now take a recessive runt from your bx3 population and go back to your p1 and you just jumbled it all back up.
Backcrossing at deeper levels causes trait segregation so you can see populations form in “families” within a seed batch.
It is possible to fix more traits at once versus one in a standard backcrossing program but the math we all see for homozygosity in bx or selfed generations is more accurate to individual pairs of alleles or traits than the genome in the same exact order as your p1 per se so selection is key.
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@Tonygreen hey it’s Motz good to see ya around
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i like this
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So do I but us most of us Yanquis can’t handle driving through a roundabout, & that looks like the most confusing traffic sign ever. 
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Hello, I’m a short time at OG, read the topic from the beginning, or tried. I will study genetics issues further.
I am a member of an organization in Brazil that does its own organic certification, called participatory, where the farmers visit each other and attest to the quality, regardless of technicians or the government. So I have access to some old seeds, before the Green Revolution.
On this journey, I worked on the production of biodynamic onion seeds.
To have quality (onion), only the seeds that are located up to the third subdivision of the main branch should be harvested.
At the industrial level, the seed is harvested by a combine, that is, it collects all the seeds from the breeding field. Thus, the seeds of the fourth, fifth … subdivision are harvested and mixed. With this, several diseases leave the field in the seeds, already associated with the sale of agrochemicals.
With cannabis, there is this process, do the seeds closer to the main branch have better quality?
With regard to Industry, the only way to change history is to seek food independence, or choose local foods. because in the end, money always ends up in it. In the last years we see a search for a healthy diet, and the organic market has been growing, the industry has already adapted, there are already hybrid varieties similar to the vegetables that were harvested in the past, adapted to the organic system. Organic inputs are sold by those who sold poison.
Are we just going to change the input package and will your profits and inequality continue?
I used the example of organics to demonstrate my vision of Industrial Cannabis.
It will be easier to monopolize cannabis than it was to dominate the food market, due to the ban in recent decades.
Sorry for the interruption, if I traveled too much, if it is not the right place, and if someone has already commented on it and I haven’t seen it.
Thanks.
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Nonsense. Feel free to expound.
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Personally I think it important with organic production to differentiate between synthetic fertilizer free and pesticide/herbicide free just because there are different environmental and health considerations when it comes to food cropping at least. For example, with regard to synthetic fertilizers, the potential for detrimental consequences tend to be environmental, at least initially, with the bulk research indicating nutritionally the food crops to be either similar, or even superior with regard to vitamins,minerals etc, this makes sense when you think about it as really the plant doesn’t care where it gets its nutrients from, all things being equal. However, overuse of synthetic fertilizer, along with excessive tilling of the soil etc, over time tends to rapidly strip out organic matter etc in the soil, leading to poorer structure, elevated salt levels and a reduction of bio availability of the available nutrients etc, not to mention reduced water holding capacity, reduced or depleted living soil ecosystems etc.
I personally don’t see that all things being equal, organic nutrients are superior or inferior to the growth and of any crop, at the end of the day, it’s still the same chemicals the plant requires for growth, providing care is taken not to overuse and steps are taken to maintain soil heath.
Pesticides and herbicides on the other hand, well how many times now has a common pesticide/herbicide been declared ‘perfectly safe’ and ubiquitously used for many years only to be declared a health hazard some decades later? Just think of glyphosphate and it’s linkage to lymphoma. This added to the fact that so called "safe’ levels require strict adherence to mixing and application rates and from my experience this is most definitely NOT consistent. It can be one of the hazards of obtaining fruit/vegetables from small acreage market gardens. Where I live for example, a lot of these market gardens are operated by people who’s grasp of English is non existent or rudimentary, which of course is no issue EXCEPT, all labels for application rates and withholding periods etc on herbicides/pesticides are written in English and the result here has been some times frightening residual levels of these chemicals in food crops obtained at small farmers markets etc.
This is a complex issue without even touching on the bottleneck of genetic diversity that often results from commercial seed breeding techniques etc. My view is that unless systems change dramatically we are going to see a crisis in food production over the next 30 years or so. It’s great to see all this discussed on OG!.
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Good discussion, I do not know if it is the appropriate place, the theory of trophobiosis states that, with the excess of free amino acids and soluble sugars in the plant tissue, there is a greater availability of food for parasites and, therefore, a greater occurrence of pests and diseases caused by them in plants.
So, regardless of whether it is organic or synthetic, in excess it causes problems. Another issue is the solubility of the fertilizer, the higher, the faster the absorption, often without the plant really needing it.
We still have to plant so much the same food in the same place, some minerals have been depleted from the soil, which the plant compensates for with another, but grows deficient and sick, producing foods that are less and less nutritionally diversified, causing malnutrition in obese people, people’s ability to think, due to lack of nutrients in certain regions of the brain.
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