Reversed males as a myth. Why not. I’m open. The read was enough stimulating without it.
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Please don’t miscontrue my rather simplistic answer (or non answer) as me shutting you down. I’m looking forward to having meaningful exchanges of thoughts. I know you know your breeding.
It’s just that, out of all you could of quoted of me, you picked me answering if one can smoke males 
Cmon now hah
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Your explanation of why codominant and incomplete dominant traits is a little confusing and vague. They will disappear because they need to be heterozygous for a gene AB to express those traits in the plants. With inbreeding, you lose heterozygosity and get more homozygous,. Either AA or BB and usually one gets selected out leaving just one homozygous pair not being able to become incomplete or codominant again until a new genetic source enters the population.
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^^ one demonstration of my trashy humor
Oh ok, i get it. It was not intentional in the way you’re thinking it. At all. When i’m feeling disrespect for someone or for the inputs, i just don’t open any dialog and i’m ignoring. I’m really considering that as an important point to comment. Your sentence was the most structured to be able to speak about that on a starting point.
I’ve to put a context then, quickly. I don’t really remember who have launched this firestarter on old boards. I think it’s Sam but i’m very not sure about that, anyway the share of this idea (reversing the male, to smoke it, in the context of a more accurate breeding) have made a bomb effect. We were all totally crazy about that and on starting blocks. But as you know already, the global genpool have not reached insane levels of accuracy and standards suddenly after that. But the subject itself, continue to live and pop up sometimes. Then my comment.
I’m sincerely not the right guy to correct the equations or to go en deep in the DNA funk. When i’ve discovered the Loci 6 and its encapsulation in cannabis, it was like i’ve discovered the fire ^^ Try to figure out. So yes, i just shut up on everything else and enjoy the stimulating ride ^^
The term codominant itself is confusing and vague from my point of view. But it’s just a semantic barrier i’ve ignored to expose my own curiosity about his opinion. Not really an explanation.
I see that you want directly talk about the screw and bolts … let’s try.
Someone have to explain me exactly what this term express for both of you, or i will shoot around i think. But i disagree (considering the next sentence i will quote).
They don’t, and that’s the real difficulty to upgrade/improve each time an IBL without an exponential “time machine” that is becoming the “chess board of issa” tale. At one point, relatively fast with cannabis, you have to become more offensive with the genotype than defensive. Or the best you can do is a status quo (lets call it preservation).
You’re not losing heterozygosity that fast and easy.
I was fighting against it more in F5 to preserve the SPG taste agent than in F2 in the Sweet Tooth #3. It’s why i’ve made and drived so many parralel line with her. An hell to just step one generation. In F4 and F5, the homozygous specimens was producing the same taste that the Bubblegum (not the cut, SS or THS). And it’s initially a backcross.
Now, you have also to understand that what i’m considering homozygous is a methodic expression of a selection. The best logical explanation to explain the stability, the occurencies and the possibility to interact with it with constancy.
It’s in fact another semantic i’m reluctant to use specifically because i’m not sequencing my plants in the kitchen. And i’m not longer interrested to play with gib’, STS etc … as a decisionnal help. It’s no longer a gain of time for me now considering that i’m no longer interrested to explore new strains, but only to work with the ones i know by heart. It’s radical maybe, but it’s to present you a personnal context.
It’s a bit more progressive if you don’t want to break your teeth fast on a randomized genetic chaos. It’s not because you make a N+1 generation that your stability is mechanically improved. Specially with landraces.
Maybe i’ve understood the point of opposition underline, let’s try.
Basically, in front of the plants, you have a given population that you have to drive to a point. And if you have enough experience and a hint of crazyness, on multiple points at a time. Let’s put this second case aside for the explanation.
In front of you, and if you’re enough in ease with the line, you have plants allready segregated naturally. They will form sub group in the class you’re assigning it, just because the breeding plan. They will not present to you as AA, BB, Ab and Ba magically compliant with your breeding plan.
The first step is to integrate your plan to the segregations allready in actions. After that, it doesn’t matter what is your poison in breeding to reach the state where the genotype is finally “bended” to your plan.
And it’s why i’m also annoyed when i read about “inbreeding depression” as a mechanical concept. With cannabis it’s mainly a human interaction, the pressure applied to a genotype to obtain something.
To speak again about the Sweet Tooth #3 (traded, no longer maintained), to maintain the specific taste without backcrossing it … it was at the price of her resistance to pest (very strong in the release) and its cloning performances (3 days initially, a good lazzy week in F5). I will not explain why, and it will be very obvious for those really knowing the “making of” of this strain.
I don’t really understand the notion of “incomplete” about what you’re talking about. You mean incomplete allele ?
For the new genetic/outcrossing, it’s true but not in the absolute way in practice. The first thing you’re learning when you’re starting to have results in inbred lines, is to isolate parralel lines. That can, later, act as the outcross you’re talking about. It was my big failure with the ST#3, i was too confident on my knowledges of the initial specimens and i’ve not thinked one second to isolate a line segregated entirely for her resistance on epigenetics. In our little green secret world, it mean a 100% outdoor line made in a corner of the garden.
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The terms Codominance, incomplete dominance, expression have solid definitions that aren’t really up for debate. They just are what they are. If you don’t understand those terms. You should check out the link I posted earlier in this thread. I understand that it can get really complex and nuanced and that can be exciting. But i was just trying to explain how you can lose incomplete dominance and codominance traits through inbreeding. It may not be instantly, it may take several generations, but if/when it happens, this would be the explanation.
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Is this what is being referred to as Codominance?
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I’m not interested by this kind of debate at all. But i was genuinely interested by how you’re translating it in a practical methodism. Theorically or not.
Shag save the dynamic, it was lacking of flowers ^^ Good job.
Have fun guys, keep the ball rolling it’s stimulating.
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That could be codominance but I suspect not. I feel like the sexual stability in cannabis is controlled by more than one gene
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Just different ways of looking at it i guess. I really like your passion though!
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Do you feel one or more malevolent pathways of stress, could directly or indirectly effect these genes?
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Let’s share mine then, i’ve to give back ^^
I comment each reference to give a grid.
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Well it gets complicated. The expression of sex in a plant is controlled by ratios of hormones. That is why we can reverse males and females but have to use different products, because it is effecting the different hormones. These hormones can be messed with through many variables like environmental conditions like temp and ph, molecules/pathogens and bad genetics. That being said yes i do think stress is effecting some of pathways both directly and indirectly. The really complicated part is that some plants seem to be more tolerant of these stresses and will remain sexually stable and some have no tolerance so there is another layer of multiple genes ontop of that controlling the tolerance to hormone changing stresses.
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No doubt.
Yes, indeed, there seems to be many ways to skin this cat.
Have you heard the one about root pruning to cause maleness in a female plant, AKA reversing her by root pruning?
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THIS 
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I have not, but I have no doubt. The plant would probably sense that is was getting “eaten by a gopher” the ones that would seed themselves or others would have a better chance of moving their genetics forward to the next generation. I believe this trait of being sexually plastic is deeply ingrained in cannabis and if you breed directly for it being 100% sexually stable, it may cause you to miss the mark on other important traits, depending on the genetics you are working of course.
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I am no expert on these subjects, but the info comes from science and real world info from a breeder friend of mine.
The reaction is based on cytokinin being formed in the root tips.
If everyday you cut these new root tips off the cytokinin is not produced or maybe not transported I forget.
It is not supposed to be stress related, but it must be somewhat stressful on the plant, so maybe it gets a double whammy of sorts.
The Role of Roots in Sex Expression in Hemp Plants.pdf (681.8 KB)
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Very interesting! Thanks for the pdf! The stress would be the interruption of the flow/production of cytokinin, which is a hormone, and hormones play important roles in regulating other hormones.
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Probably Sam or Hyb yeah.
Correct. I have a screenshot of a post on my other phone that applies here, it’s my favorite post ever I think haha.
The gist of it is: when you look at those who have the ability to grow thousands of plants, with in house labs and all the gadgets, where are their contributions? Where are their lines that smash everything on the market? Not happening. The best of the best always seem to pop up at random, often from regular folks humble gardens.
Absolutely maddening in on way, but also hilarious.
Me, I think the big boys go where the money is, trash government sponsored weed. Not so much legendary lines haha.
To your point, if you’re not popping seeds youre not testing genetic potential… selfing or test cross etc.
Looking at a male flower structure and picking one you like can’t guarantee it’ll be passed down.
But in the real world where 99% of growers don’t do this full time, every bit helps. Looking at one male won’t tell you much, but if you laid eyes on 500, there’s a good chance you can recognize a few things that’ll make choosing one for further breeder easier.
For example, I flower a bunch of packs under t5s in a 2x4, officially i can’t do proper selection in that setup and for the most part I don’t. But I grew enough sour strawberry that I’m sure I can select from that line even when grown under t5 and i probably do a better job than the next guy growing SS under 16k hid for the first time.
It’s all relative haha, or uh grower/breeders preference 
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Oh dude you’re earning some kudos in my head here 
And you’re throwing some treats for my bored brain ^^ A fews survivors of my old Jack will be soon ready to fire, less time to troll OG I swear.
But to be clear/fair, we are entering in a shared critic in the very first portion. Let me cut your text (with good intentions lol, if ever you need again this kind of disclaimer from me).
We have first to set what is the grey area of this, what is the marketing of this and also the fcking enormous, biggest, deleterious problematic we have to face : the side effects of a democratization that is now running full throttle.
The grey area and the marketing : Back in the days, it was pretty common to use “grow op” pictures to show a “breeding facility”. And at this time, the “stoner’s mass” was already enough weak to don’t be able to see that the bankable breeder was showing the same selected clones in a lucrative weed production, not specimens. Most of big names have done it, and i don’t really blame. It’s beautiful to watch, and for a breeder it’s a kind of celebration of your effort also. But sadly, that you can’t really share as it is to bring fuel in the engine.
There is exception of course. Let me name twos crazy guys with a strong personnality (wink to cactus) : Breeder Steve and Shantibaba. Because there are twos opposites in everything, also.
The first was an exogenous and an exotic element at his time (for the game). Even with big efforts, i’m unable to like the guy. But i love his hands as fck and his creativity in breeding. He have something like a creative madness. It’s pretty much talking to me, and most of the craziest selections i’ve done have this guy as a main inspiration. It’s also on the tail of this comet that I’ve build years after years of stubborn try&fails a methodology to kill seedlings industrially (it’s a loop to a further comment). Don’t get me wrong, it’s inspiration. When he took the time to write something, i generally dislike it and don’t digest it. His plants was far more interesting to read imho.
He was really owning (a short period, yes) a large breeding facility. And was using it. No change actually, he continue to do his stuff the same way today. Stubborn to the nails, and my respect to have survived the Darwinian game and lasted so much. His contribution to the global genpool is minimalist, and without using “bad mouthing” it’s mostly after his temporary joint venture with DJ Short. His contribution to my experience is massive. Yes, i’m segregating the subject here ^^
Shantibaba/Scott is another flavor. And honestly he was a total douchebag until he leaved Green House. Then he became a pearl as a person. Really, try to meet him at a cup. But damn this guy … try to figure out. Ok Neville, Sam, etc … and all the legend built around that is animating the scene for the “making of”, the “roots of”, the blabla … but starting from Sensi Seeds this guy is already impressive. In term of quantitative printfoot in the global genpool, he just killed the game. Unreachable. The Greenhouse period was something too, Shantibaba unleashed with the firepower of Arjan (another “strong personnality” ^^).
What i’m liking with this guy, it’s the story of the stakhanovist “little hand”. It’s another school, the quantitative approach and the (insane) big facilities to keep a reference of everything. Something that maybe is more talking to you. I personnally don’t like this strong dependency to the context, and also the insane risks included. If i lost my hammer, well i want to be able to do the same thing with a big stone. Life is a bitch sometimes, you have to “breed” your skills like your plants and to be able to scale down drastically the next minute if necessary. To run “light”. If you’re entirely dependant of a 100 square meter pool of motherplants, you’re doomed.
Contribution is sometimes more complicated to evaluate that it look. But in term of global contribution, no one in this game can stay straight in his shoes and to don’t say that the big Ben (lol) is not the puppet master of everything around. Even half-retired now, his influence on the game since the beginning is out of any mesure. Ones can arg on his Napoleonic tactics and other naive grids, it don’t change the facts. Never met or saw the pope, i don’t even known if I’m not only able to only shake his hands with a stupid muted smile. What to say or ask to this kind of guy, seriously. I can’t even talk about my experiments on french hemp with him, he’s an industrial also in this industry.
All of that is far from little battles of credibility in the sane wars of little places. It’s history ^^
But it lead to my conclusion : everything is about the scale we’re talking about. I’m crying all the tears of body when i’m smelling everywhere in the streets this disgusting odor of hemp. When i’m looking a grow diary with so called indoor “autofem” inside, even outdoor. But this tangent is history too, and in direct relationship with the contribution i was talking about.
Absolutely not the one i was imagining in the 90’s, with stars in the eyes each time i was coming to Amsterdam like a pilgrim. If you describe the actual market to this young stoner, he will not believe you one second and take you for a foolish Nostradamus. I’m not trying to be arrogant or to push hard, just to explain why i’m pretty reluctant and on defensive when i see breeding discussions falling to far from the dirty pots and the practical methodism. Just exposing the grid of my sight, not even half-salty. Damn it’s too dense again, i’ve to put some pics to aerate that.
Totally right in my opinion. It’s an example but there is always a cut somewhere that will generate the chaos on a world scale. And the more we are industrializing the plant, the less occurences.
And the less we push creative people to make seeds … the less it can happend again. And the more we’re doomed to see the same lines again and again, and more narrowed each year with washed genetics ^^ Don’t get me started with the white knights trend, i’m talking about the large scale commercial pressure.
But i’ve to add some water in the wine. Grow ops have played a decent role also, historically, to pop up famous cuts. But also to make them an asset. When everyone ask you a specific weed, you just overgrow it (wink to my memories of SoQuick). Today the game have changed, cycle a lot shorter, and is more close to any commercial temporary product. Reacting fast, massively before the trend vanish, tons of money in marketing and capitalistic darwinism.
If you’re smart and that you refuse to fight armored giants with a fork and barefoot, there is plenty of cards to play. Experience is becoming an asset more than ever, the more fast you secure your results in a constant and reliable method, the more you’re becoming a “skill dope”. The manner, the type of specialization, the philosophy doesn’t matter. Also, this business was never so much hungry for genetic than now. And you can clearly see years after years than males are becoming something like an unknown species ^^ Just saying.
For the gov’ weed, i’m far from the subject. I just know some details for the Italian case, that everybody enough curious can catch without much efforts.
But the little boys too, have to live. And it’s totally ok. You don’t put the bread on the table with legends.
It’s a darwinian game buddy.
At first you’re refusing to make fems with your genpool. Then when you can’t pay the bills and to fill the fridge with your outdated logic, you’re just rushing to make discount bulk fems with hyped clones just bought under the desk in a dirty growshop ^^ That’s the crude reality, and you can scale this to successfully projects, grow op … everything. It’s the price of the democratization, the mass in an ogre that want quantitative approach, for yesterday.
Even the big Ben have zero responsability in that. It’s more the big changes in the exchange of information, educated customers, trends, “fun fairs of weed” etc … and i’m very happy to have found the new OG. It’s an hybrid place where we can have this discussion comfy, free.
Let’s come back to have fun with the bolts and screws.
I disagree, but only because your consideration is lacking of context. I say that with good vibes and good intentions, but you’re looking like to be a bit nihilist when the background is becoming the main factor of the equation. Maybe it’s your formulation, or my level of english that don’t permit to catch the double sense or something … i’m just sharing the feeling with transparency and peacefully.
Someone fascinated by the genetic’s dynamics of cannabis will do everything to be intensive in term of timing. In practice, he will count in “season”. No matter if a season is three months (what i’m calling a run/rush/round), one year or five years (strain). Even a decade (maturated genpool). These numbers are elastic.
When you get mad and fill an entire big villa with plants, off course you’re compressing something : the time needed or the number of lines worked. Or both ^^ Same when you’re scalling down, but in a reverse sense. And it’s important to understand that at first glance : when you can launch something at a large scale, you’re not increasing anything but the ratios. It speed up the process (any type) only if you have a solid map of the green hell you have set. And enough experience to build a method for each surprise. That, without having a visibility on the timing of the output.
If you’re a poker player (all in), the aimed output is just a wanted standard until the voracious machine you have launched need to be filled with bucks. All this electricity, the soil/coco/rockwhool, the nutes and the infamous time you pass inside the lab’ have to be paid. Or everything stop suddenly. In this case you don’t play blind or have the luxury to explore, you have to rush on mastered leverages only.
If you’re a lucky guy and have all time you need to extract the expressions aimed (because massively sponsored/patronage, or because you just earn very well already), you just have to push the triggers on demand. 1 year dedicated to a single line only to study a given linked trait ? No problemo.
But for both, this is the same ratios and the same constraint of time face to the plants. The output doesn’t matter actually. It’s the time they have spend at it that matter : they have build a cerebral asset that is not temporary.
And if ever, they have to do it again. They already know the ground. If both, the next year, have to scale down the context. They are not in the shit at all. They are in far better position than before the large scale rush. They known already what to select and not to select, and how to recognize fast the right leverages of the line.
Yes you need to test genetic potential, to make a heterogeneous pool of testers … but only when you’re exploring something. And eventually when you want to be sure that a F1 is liked by various profiles, but it’s another subject.
You don’t need it if your brains have already sorted thousands of specimens. And it doesn’t matter if it’s happening in the gigantic warehouse of Scott in one year over 50 lines, or in a perpetual closet during 5 years with a single line. The practical difference is just the ratios, not what you’re accumulating with your hands.
And of course you can select a male just like a female. They are the same damned plants ^^ You have to get used to it and to build a methodism just like you’re doing it when you consider the flowers of the females.
When you’re in the third week and that you’re seeing the flowers building around the stems. You have no clue of what can happend if it’s the first time you grow the variation. Is the stretch useless for the yield ? Is the further covering of trichomes good ? How can i known if these immature scents are spot on ? You see it’s not so different.
The only thing changing is the number of times you have done it, then you can cull this fckng female that stretch for nothing and that produce bud that are tasting like hay, weeks before making useless seeds from it and to spend 4 months to verify how bad it is. And the more you’re accumulating, the more you’re adapting fast. The more you’re seeing clear pattern in your subgroups from subtle variations etc …
A Jack Herer F9 is germinating in front of me. With this bitch (love/hate affair with me), i’m able to close the selection of any number of specimens within one month at this stage. Literally blindfolded. And it’s not possible with the official release. I will not be losted at all, but that’s a different game. It’s an extraction, and for that i must totally record the starting point patterns in my head to best manage the further traps.
And I can do that not because “it’s the best out there” or because i’ve a secret from the area 51… and all these bullshit. She’s unstable in term of shape, more bitchy on nutes and cares that everything i’ve know and an hell to feed while she’s flowering to obtain a decent yield. That’s the long term price of his actual potency. I just know by heart this price as a sequential timeline and as isolated factors (traits).
Look like a dogma now, right ? It’s not. It’s what is working for me with constancy over years, and make me functionnal in front of the plants.
I known someone in Spain, an underrated rasta breeder by the way, unable to make good seeds if he can’t do it with the plants on outdoor, growing full throttle without height limitations. Full organic things etc …
If i come in his crop with my JH and do it like him, i will just waste one year for nothing. Without my lights and my indoor marks, I will be unable to be enough accurate to be sure that the F10 is an improvement for my goal. The scents will be totally different, the texture of leafs, trunk, stems and the reactions of the plants will give pattern I’ve not accumulated in mind. I’m not even sure that the line can survive it actually ^^
Science full throttle as the backbone of the selection, why not. Quantitative approach full throttle, why not. But while you’re spending years to test all seeds of your lines for just one step, some crazy guys will output an entire catalog during this time.
And it’s not impossible with a qualitative approach, in the very dominant shadow of an established breeder (with a very strong personality again ^^), and from a semi-confidential forum somewhere in UK. He’s now worldly known and loved like i’ve never seen before.
I’m not against your idea to test everything to take decisions. But my hands have to be fair with you : it’s in front of the plants that you have to take decisions. By the way i’m considering that in this game, your brain is most efficient when he live the memory he’s building. More easy and fast to remember with the whole body one variation that with a barcode and a database.
500 males, is also 500 times one male. I think that you’re mixing the power of ratios in patterns and sub groups, and the occurrences of exceptional phenotypes inside these patterns. You have to broke your teeth on it, like everybody. And there is no shield for it, no matter the way you’re choosing.
But in practice, something else is happening to make it real. There is no ultimate specimen you’re seeking inside a chaos, but a spectrum of choices (bad or good) that you have to do in a restricted range that you set with your breeding skills.
Give the same seeds to twos very skilled and isolated breeders and let’s say twos years. With the obligation to output something competitive. One year for the extraction, one year for the refinement. You will end with twos different strains with different intrinsicall qualities.
I’m coming directly from the 1KW HPS or MH/sqm dogma. And i’ve switched to full neon for everything 20 years ago. Let say it’s a wanted and loved epigenetic factor, but i love also my weed flowered under neons. It’s just a technical choice, like the spanish rasta outperforming outdoor.
And i disagree. A proper selection is made by results and facts. Not by a tool or a specific way of thinking.
With neon i’m using a minimal amount of 500W/sqm density. Below it change too much the reactions of the plants, and it’s too long. I’m more on the 700W - 1KW range as comfort zone. I love neons, i’m addicted to neons and it’s my own hint of insanity.
Of course to reach faster and cheaper decent conditions, i will go for a 2x4 in a 250HPS. Easy to manage and cool, not specially hungry in electricity. And you can make insane things just with that.
Also on tubular neons, T8 are better. Do a dense array (they generaly are 4" long) well vented with scavenged single units. In your space that’s around 10xT8 and it can boost enough the rythm to change your mind.
Don’t use the math to show you how everything is impossible if you don’t swim in millions. And no one is asking you to open a famous seedbank for yesterday. If you’re genuinely interrested to live these fascinating dynamics, just do it and enjoy the ride. Why waiting ?
I know pretty well the swiss erdbeer and it’s not the easiest to drive, specially in limited space ^^
Anyway, i think you’re wrong for the same reasons that in up.
You are strictly in equality for this specific game, from the starting point. None of you know the genetic trigger of the line since a while. From my point of view, i will not bet on any of the twos guys.
But only one of them is wasting his time in don’t making seeds and don’t using his background to select specimens with what he have under the hand 
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I’m not reading that wall of text bro.
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