… yes, yes, and also yes.
However there are still levels to all things. Having Thomas Keller cook your meal personally is not the same as having a meal prepared to his exacting standards by his employee in his restaurant, to follow your counter example out logically. That difference may be negligible or pedantic to some, of course, but I still think it counts for something here 
As someone who spent a decade in fine dining kitchens, I will have to disagree. People fly from across the world to work for free for him, its training. Same thing can happen with high density cannabis, we just need people who are willing to explore it (which I am, and if the project gets funded I will 100% make a thread detailing it).
I will also say that I dont think an acre or two of high density cannabis should be considered mass production. As someone who has done it, it is entirely reasonable to walk and inspect an acre.
Because the concept of high density planting seems so foreign to us doesn’t mean it won’t work and it can’t be run at some sort of scale. Historically this is how cannabis was likely cultivated, we just lost that to time with prohibition.
Edit to add: I also consider outdoor planting to be a prerequisite for truly sustainable cannabis production. I obviously do indoor and so do many others, but the energy used (even for LEDs) is too high to be considered sustainable. High density plantings are just one tool for sustainable growers
Well there seem to be separate discussions happening in this thread. Regarding every other aspect of this idea, yes. But none of the other great aspects you mention are directly to the point being made regarding market perception of quality of end product.
Is there a separate level to dining in the celebrity chef restaurant vs having the man himself provide personal service? Yes of course there is. We know that people pay top dollar for that prestige all the time, evidenced by the fact that others will work for free in pursuit of it….
But does it actually taste better when made by the man with his own hands vs his employees?
The only point there being that no matter how great you feel this method is or how great it actually is when applied for real…. that just won’t ever negate this other perception that exists over small batch products, whether true or no. I know I ‘can’ walk an acre of rowed plants and tend and trim and cull and deter pests etc. The counter point here is that I can do so more meticulously on a quarter acre with the same time investment. It’s a hard sell to convince average Joe consumer that this does not tend towards higher quality of crop in general - even if not technically true. Personally I do believe there will be room for both types of farmers but we shall see I guess.
It also crossed my mind today that, at least in Michigan’s legal market, outdoor grown cannabis needs remediation to pass our strict microbial testing. If that is so, there’s also a massive hit on quality.
@mighty_nugs great post! I agree this idea isn’t for everyone, but I will respectfully disagree its gotten off topic. Barriers to adoption include perceived downsides and it sounds like there is a lot of concern for the finished product. This discussion has a lot of value and these are also real questions I will need to find answers to if I want to move this idea forward, which I do.
Talking with budtenders/dispo owners/growers customers who buy flower fall into 2 camps and both spends money consistently. The first is the casual smoker who cares less about odor, flavor, terpene content etc and are mostly looking to buy something mid priced but they can get a deal on. Like a half oz for $50.
The other customer profile are the people who are here, myself included. We are the cannasieurs if you will. We are pickier about what we smoke and typically have a favorite grower or 2 that we mostly buy, because we know their work meets our standard.
Its fine in my opinion if cannasieurs are not big fans of high density plantings, and that’s not meant to be a knock on anyone. If we can switch from massive industrial indoor grows that pump out stuff for the casual smoker to sustainably grown outdoor high density cannabis plantings, I think the benefits to soil health, biodiversity, and the environment make it worth exploring.
Just like organic agriculture isn’t popular with all farmers, high density cannabis doesn’t have to be popular with all cannabis growers. One of the beauties of cannabis is the diversity, and that extends to cultivation. More methods means more options for growers to find what matches best with their wants and motivations and lets them support their family and community.
Yeah, but a lot of that from talking to growers is flowering time or lack of genetic resistance. I have another thread on regional IBLs where I start to get at the idea that cannabis should be regional. I think this allows for development of locally adapted cultivars that will perform well in their home climates.
I don’t know how many breeders are out there doing this, but based on that thread there are some, even if unintentionally. I think lines such as those would be of immense value for outdoor growers.
No, it’s the dirt that is blown all over the plants. The insect poop on the plants +insect bodies on the flowers. Pollen. Debris. Outside is dirty. Which I’m fine with. Michigan’s legal cannabis system is not.
@ThePotanist - sorry for not reading the entire thread yet, just stumbled upon this but… i have to ask, can you point out the pros and cons for high density planting? to me it just sounds like a lot more work and potential problems… pests, males, mold, etc.
what is it that high density planting is supposed to achieve? seems like it’s doable with only a certain kind of cannabis genetics, if you get into outcrossing or inbreeding you have phenotypic variation which is going to make things tricky with high plant densities.
nature is a good indicator to me… in places where feral populations of cannabis exist, do they naturally seed themselves 20,000 or more to an acre? if not then i wouldn’t try it myself.
i really like your enthusiasm and willingness to explore.
Read the thread. A lot of that has been covered.
Ahhh! Got ya! Thats a problem caused by overuse of tillage and lack of ground cover. Literally the reason the dust bowl happened!!
If its soil from their own farm, planting a cover crop in the field that grows low like turf grass will do an immense amount to prevent that from happening.
Any idea where the soils is blowing from?
In my case, from working in the garden. Not a high density scenario, but another outdoor situation. There rest of the contaminates still apply. Bird droppings are another one.
So the pros of high density plantings (and specifically a rotation scheme i have mentioned earlier in this thread with cover cropping and specialty grains) include improved soil health and fertility (takes a few years to build up, but eventually you won’t need to buy fertilizer except in emergency deficiencies. If you can incorporate some animals to graze on residue, you will never need to buy fertilizer again) improved protection of water resources, increased habitat that increases biodiversity (including insects that will annihilate crop pests), increased carbon sequestration from the air, and improved organic matter and soil structure (both linked to significant increases in crop yield). High density plantings are also better able to sustain diverse microbial populations that include predators of pathogens and pathogen suppressors and are responsible for increased secondary metabolites production and fruit nutrition in most other consumable crops. Limited studies support this in Cannabis (miceobe effects) but I mostly trust them.
The cons include reduced yield per plant (you negate with high density though, and again the soil health improvements from high density are worth it). You also have to be more selective of cultivars to insulate from disease issues. Its a popular scheme in many organic crops, so high density plantings are pretty well researched.
I’m not delusional, this planting scheme isn’t going to be for everyone nor will any of this be adopted overnight. But I am very passionate about improving soil health and think that it is worth it.
ok so i’ve read enough of the thread now and i think the thing that we need to be very clear on is scale and scope. ThePotanist is suggesting that high density planting on fertile land is beneficial for the soil, environment, our plant, etc. i think i tend to agree, however i think the way we ‘monocrop’ is also not good for the environment. when we look at the root structures of shrubs and trees we find under the soil is just as fascinating as what we see above. there are tools at human’s disposal, drones, machines, and the like… we can do anything we put our minds to, with enough energy (money).
now, for most in-home growers or people who can manage say up to 100 plants in a small field, we don’t have the resources to manage such situations that may arise. mold, wind damage, broken limbs etc.
now cover cropping is an entirely different thing and honestly i would rather do a ‘three sisters’ approach to improving my garden than high density planting in a monoculture.
Yeah those are definitely true. I think a lot of those issues are also possible indoors though and there are now any number of ways to wash and remediate without ruining quality.
careful, the more you tell people you aren’t crazy the crazier you sound 
i support your values behind wanting to improve the soil and environment from it. i can tell you first hand my plants provide enough oxygen for me alone and i have 20 of them growing next to me as i sleep. i love my plants like a hippie loves nature. i’ve had crazy dense plantings before and honestly it’s just too much work.
on an industrial scale, it’s a lot more work than low density plantings with a highly productive cultivar. it’s going to be a tough sell for retail (buy more seeds, less productive) vs (buy less seeds, more productive). that’s why productive cultivars are expensive, because ultimately they make more money than they consume. always have to be a net positive with the work we put in vs the result we get out.
Oh man, you really losing out with no cover crops! But thats ok, as long as you keep your soil covered and stuff growing in it, you doing a great job!
So the rotation i mentioned above, especially with the inclusion of grazers occasionally, will build soil fertility. You can rescue dead farmland this way. Take land that can’t support anything and go to land that can produce healthy plants with only occasional inputs needed.
I don’t know if people understand just how important soil is to our everyday lives. We need to protect and feed the soil we have or we are in big trouble. I happen to really enjoy growing and using cannabis and I love the people I’ve met who work in Cannabis. This is a way for me to marry 2 passions that
i’ve never seen land that can’t support anything, but i live in fertile flood plains and even we have our issues. it’s all about what we’re trying to do and how clever we are to pull it off.
couldn’t agree more. we need more trees, and more legumes everywhere. but big business doesn’t like consumers being self reliant. the sad reality is that for most, they’ll never have their own soil to care about. by the time most achieve their own home, they’re too damaged from work to make it their own, at least in most places i’ve seen my life. (states of America)
I’m cynical, so I think seeds are so expensive because prohibition made it dangerous (more risk more reward) and now that it is absolutely legal to produce seed the prices make no sense. There’s a reason that so many people have started selling seeds, people pay ridiculous money for something that isn’t illegal anymore and its because its the way its always been done.
I get the argument of people spent the time to hunt and breed lines, and I agree they deserve to be paid. But the current system lets any hobbyist make a seed run, make a bunch of money and then disappear when people finally realize what’s up.
“Absolutely legal” is a stretch.
i’m in a legal state and has been for 2 years. there’s no place here to buy seeds. furthermore, let’s say i’m going to buy a pack of seeds from “John Doe breeder”. i can go to the dispo and pay i think like $15/gram after tax or i could spend 200 on a pack of seeds and grow them out and have enough smoke for 1 full year. lets discount the fact that i keep clones and mothers. a 200 pack of beans i can save thousands in the future by not buying legal cannabis.
in nearly every situation, even with expensive seeds, the output is always higher than the input. God made cannabis to be the amazing plant it is (my belief, feel free to reject it). i can breed with it, i can inbreed it, i can self them, i can clone… there’s no limits.
i’ve found i always pay more in electric/water and my time than i do for seeds. i can also say, the beans i’ve paid the most for, have generally been better end products.