I earnestly believe the demand is still there, but the total number of gardeners has ballooned to such an extent that we’re few and far between now. The average gardener doesn’t know what the fuck homogenous means, nevermind multi-polyhybrid, or homo and heterozygous.
We’ve also gone from a couple dozen places to buy seeds, to literally hundreds, if not thousands.
Yup. Seed versions of a clone-only variety are not the clone… unless they did this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2784905/#idm140619421188560title
Which, I assume, no one has. But it is a super cool paper and concept.
Assuming you refer to “Origin #1” in this list.
Yes, and this is why home growers and commercial growers will fundamentally diverge. Commercial growing is for profit, while home growing is for craft… or a whole bunch of other reasons that aren’t strictly profit.
Commercial growers don’t even want IBLs, because they have lost vigor (inbreeding depression). They perk back up when you hybridize them again, but then they aren’t as predictable as clones.
BX is a fine method for people who just want consistency… But when you outcross it, it’s usually no different than outcrossing a polyhybrid. So beware of hybrids from BX strains if you care about consistency. They still need to be inbred before they’re stable.
I grow for exploration. I want to try all of the most extreme kinds of cannabis out there. I want to see all the weird shit, and find something unique. Or try out some of the classic stuff from before my time.
No way am I going to get that at the dispensary. Everything is a hybrid, everything is high yield, everything has perfect dense kush buds, everything flowers in 63 days, and everything has high THC. That’s a very narrow window. Been there, done that. There’s a lot more out there!
allora and @Stickyjones
this is interesting because I haven’t been able to find what I would consider to be the ‘real blue dream’ (the original santa cruz blue dream cut) since I left california. The cuts I grew were sourced from a local grower in SC and later I got the cut again at harborside medical in oakland. even coming from different sources, there was no doubt it was the same cut. It had a light sugar cookies like smell, but intense potency and frost that spread onto the fan leaves during flowering. Best of all, it seemed to perform and yield exactly the same in any grow environment (indoor, greenhouse, and outdoor.)
I think there is something to be said for the uniformity of growing a really great clone.
I was able to get the cut in santa cruz and sf when I lived in those towns, but haven’t found it at all in the pnw.
In fact what is sold here in dispensaries as blue dream clones and flower is for certain a completely different cut, and maybe even a different strain altogether.
HSO humboldt seed organization also sells a bogus version of blue dream as fem seeds. They are actually based in spain, and likely have no access to the actual genetics. Their name seems to be an attempt to capitalize the name recognition of the (now defunct) prop 215 humboldt medical collective.
I was actually plesently suprised when the American strains hit.
But if you’re looking for two true breeding strains in the purpose of creating an f1 with two allele would be from ace just my thoughts?
haha I just saw this after writing a post about them misrepresenting themselves and their genetics, looks like you caught them as well.
Origin #1 is the first (and only) Blue Dream. The rest are knockoffs. In the legal world of plant breeding, they wouldn’t be able to use the same name for a seed variety as a clone-only cultivar or other seed varieties sold under that name already; hence the confusion.
I’ve grown HSO auto Blue Dream and DJs Azure Haze. The auto BD is very vigorous and generally high potency (18%+) with huge colas, variable height. Azure Haze was very different structure and carrot smelling, rather variable from seed. Both were very different than the clone.
Well don’t get me wrong, they’re not bad. But if you’ve been smoking on old Dutch stuff all these years, or whatever is local to you, then I can see the appeal.
For me, the typical American polyhybrid is a dime a dozen now, because anyone in a legal state can go get clones and chuck pollen on them and sell seeds on strainly. I’m just not into growing these crazy unstable polys when I can just walk down the street and buy an elite clone myself.
I don’t buy liquor to get fucked up anymore, and I don’t smoke for that reason either. There’s a gross lack of connoisseurship in the market right now. My dad use to tell me about how it was exciting to visit Colorado, because you could get Coors, when he could only get Budweiser before then (both beers taste nearly the same for non-Americans who might be wondering). I think after legalization sets in a bit, we’re going to look back on this time with a similar perspective.
Two inbred lines from two completely different lines can result in hybrid vigour. This occurs because they receive two alleles one from each parent.
Be careful what you wish for in this day and age 
I knew this subject was going to generate some interesting discussion . Good reading already .
I think that polyhybids are a danger to the future of intentional cultivation. They seem to be the result of banging plants on hand into each other. Like herms, and other Fems they are fine for smoke and practice but if you’re looking for something, creating something, or sharing there should be better choices.
I am looking forward to running some seeds intentionally so that I have better options (than my S1) for sharing freely.
@AllOra i heard on bodhis potcast about the two bd cuts and i noticed it where i live as well. Idk if it was a from seed version or the other cuts but i do know it was spear shaped nugs that were frosty and great for a while but then its been mediocre stuff ever since. @lefthandseeds i totally agree in the connoissuer part. f1s and landrace plants and the buzz and vigor that they have is great. Also stabalized cultivars should have a stronger market because people will want to get what they are expecting. like someone mentioned above, the masses dont know much about the plant and if the description says skunky bushy and yields a qp per m2 thats what the majority will want. I think that a lot of people heres stuff will be like small batch top shelf bourbon someday soon because there is lots of info on all of it and it is all unique.
I definitely still appreciate a strain that comes up homogenous even from seed. My last grow before my current setup started up, and I believe it was 6 months after OG originally fell.
I had a closet filled with OG Lowryder’s that I made sure to do a couple breeding crops of. I was hella proud of my Lowryder crosses; I made sure to individually inseminate each branch of each female with a different male’s pollen to make sure there was a good amount of genetic variety for me to continue on working with.
Unfortunately someone stole the last crop I pulled, including the seed lot. I was 4 generations in and getting basically one plant popping up from every seed. Very, very homogenus, and it was only going to get better.
It’s wonderful to have a strain that you can make a batch of f2’s out of, and knowing all those crosses are going to come up with the same size and thickness, regardless of sex.
I hope to do a little breeding with my three new strains and get something worth growing, clipping, and smoking that comes up with that kind of homogeny.
Homogeneous strains tend to dull potency but breed true if you have two ibl’s from totally different genetic stock there’s a possibility in what is known as hybrid vigour, a plant normally only contains one allele if you can find two strains very removed but homogeneous there is a chance that you can create a plant with hybrid vigour that contains an allele from both parent doners.
Nl5 haze is a good example of this!
Cannabis is out crossing.
Ibl lines must be from a population that is not too small I would say 1000 plants is a number that with just enough versatility to just cope with genetic bottleneck.
A true f1 should exhibit 50% homogenous with the other 50% split between both parents I think ?
Mendels law is maybe dated now? But it still holds revelence for breeders.
The science is that you concentrate on one trait at a time.
This doesn’t mean someone can’t swing it if they embroil themselves but the combination of genetics can provide many case studies with many different combinations of the same genetic code.
To keep case studies down we concentrate on the numbers that express the genetic traits we desire the most.
This is to exclude sidetracking because there are infinite combinations of genetics that can reopen recessive traits and different combinations of genetic differences.
Breeding plants is not as complex as breeding humans but without someone who can run the numbers to avoid genetic deformities that could come with flooding a genetic code with its direct offspring?
Landrace strains evolve normally with a population way over a thousand, but a thousand is where is agreeable that there is enough genetic diversity to find enough males and females to make this project viable?
I find mendles law something to adhere to until a better method is thought of?
damn this is some good reading, for newbs and experienced alike. i think we will see two different markets, craft and massed produced. commercial ops want consistent canopies. craft growers have to time to tend to a several plants, where attention to 100’s wouldnt be feasible.
I think the classics do well, I also think it would be harder to establish a new classic or should I say one that sells well for atleast as long as it took to make it homogeneous
This is what I see happening too. I believe there is enough room for both markets.