It’s not a clone of this kind of thread. But about to share more than sarcasms, to present maybe some ignored angles but also to know what’s the position of everyone freely.
Free of any interest. It don’t mean that if you’re owning a label you can’t discuss, it mean that we enter in the core of the question here and that you have to handle it or to ignore it.
I think that it can be even interesting to regionalize the discussion.
Hope we’ll be having a great conversation here
I’m not certain where I might be able to relate or have opinions but I’ll be following along until then anyway.
I don’t see the issues with clone banks/sellers. They fill a need and in a way are stewards of some amazing genetics. Not all of them are good stewards, but there are plenty that are.
The “Thousand dollar” clone from CS, scares most who don’t investigate. I picked up 4 for $520 ish on 420 sale. Seems like even the “Hunters” will become a thing of the past. The new age “microwave” growers, will want, fire , now! have to re teach “Fast, good, cheap” method, lol
I don’t think hunters will be a thing of the past, different strokes for different folks.
Like everything in general? --ok here’s my 2¢ on stuff as a hobbyist homegrower and “medical patient”
*For buying clones, i like 15-25 USD as my benchmark
*For buying flower, i feel like 50/eighth has been the benchmark literally since i was in high school in the 90s.
*For buying seeds, 10/ea is tops what I’d like to pay.
*For the sake of putting a value to my flower, i go with 10/gm
In EU, Canna (Spain) still rule the game. They are in the state of monopoly in offering strictly everything fast (but not cheap), chromato, sequencing even soil analysis. It’s abnormal with the shit tons of geneticists and PHd biologist/botanists/semi-gods i met in ICM these last two years (free taunt ^^)
It’s nothing in comparison of the prices i was used to see, when this market don’t existed. Nothing.
In the absolute, you can get everything for free. And in another hand i’m aware of my mortality, so i don’t mind to buy time. Even at vile prices sometimes.
Hunting, even for free, shouldn’t be underestimated. It’s a dedication, you have to be skilled socially, it eat a lot of time … it’s a debate itself;
A breeding unit of 350sqm (eu) running full throttle cost around 1K/5K per month all included. Now you have cycles that are more expensive than other. R&D (continuing the development of your genpool) being a pure dry cost to feed with previous profits.
Not saying CS spend this, but it’s a good base to evaluate how it cost really when you play hard.
We share the philosophy. At a certain degree of activity and volume, it’s no longer a hobby but a jail. I’m not joking and the youth of today have the tendance to ignore this.
We had some breeders that come from very rich families, literal golden boys, but even them are struggled to make profits to pay their crew decently. Everyone pay the bills, even those that pretend to live in another planet where all is free ^^
We don’t play all in the same league, it’s not the North Korea buddy.
A pure hobbyist taking the time to source everything for free is totally legit. It’s the soul of OG.
It shouldn’t make illegitimate all others cases, too numerous to be listed.
imho, the next five years cycle will be quite hardcore on price tags for the true genetic materials. Just by the phenomenon of rarity (in term of grade) and with a competitiveness that is coming back the knife between the teeths. The euphory of the democratization is already over from my perspective.
If everybody want THIS cut and that the motherplant is an hell to clone and keep sane … it’s not going on the cheap side. It’s legit, the plants don’t clone themselves.
Add to this a tension on the demand/offer … and you have almost the big picture.
If no one ask a cut … clone’s seller will just give it as freebie aside better horses ^^
Glad to see the SD archivist over here ^^
I will tell you something crazy man. During my quest I’ve ignored no one, little guys or not.
I met guys that weren’t able to realize they were owning and selling the original Thin Mint or the true Cherry Pie cut. It was even relabeled by fear to be burnt in public place, because all they know on these two cuts is BS ^^
Literrally, your quote is actually effective lol
Hell yeah. Just hell yeah ^^
I’m an hybrid of both. But i consider these 1of1 as the competitors and master breeders i need too, to stay sharp. The referential that beat your ass if you fail, no fuzz no buzz, you pick up your teeths on the ground and you try again 
It’s very important to write it straight like you done.
It’s not disneyland either, you have to dodge fake, dramas , storytelling … but even these mines are useful for the community. They push people to educate themselves.
Totally legit. But please accept that my limit don’t exist, and that i’m not alone in this case. It’s also a portion of these prices.
We can transpose this to anything. Maybe you have things in your life you’re loving and on which you can go crazy, where others will never cross the rational line.
It’s not gonna be to slow down ^^
I’m not making the link with the federal reschedule and “low life con artists”, not talking entirely from your lands so i miss the point.
The canna leaf sub-prime yeah ^^
It will change, i believe on this part. Because our market is better than gold to beat the inflation. Simply.
Storytelling killed the game, the Berner’s rush was really toxic for our community.
Not Berner, Not Cookie : it’s the burger king of the weed, who can blame this honestly in plain democratization.
But how it influenced the new batch of breeders inserted during this period. Still a Darwinian game, the spring cleaning is already at work. But still something i try to understand, from here.
Amen to this.
This guy don’t need any explanation ^^
True, we are not talking about breeding in term of final product.
But let me tell you that it’s absolutely not my comfort zone to dial such a nursery, and with such constraints of results. So, in SP, i just used one as my “motherplant chamber”.
You relativize a lot the prices of things when it’s actually making you cut a bunch of costs + the reactivity if you work for fem junkies. If i can receive any necessary cut, clean, vigorous, within 48 hours … there is no way i mount a veg tent no matter the cost.
Now i saw clones sold 70 bucks i will refuse to take even if you pay me 700 to accept ^^
When Arjan approached Rez … well the price is known anyway, 5 digits ^^ For the result we know. Yes, sometimes the timing make the genetic crazy high in prices. But it’s also showing who is the more interested to have a grip with it.
Can be a grow op that need to take the lead, can be breeders, can be a fucking damned CAN lab using molded souls (supposed to be your friend breeder) to patent all OUR lines in chain …
For now it’s not clone’s sellers the ennemy, but the suckers self-claimed breeders that are playing the industrial betrayors with labs. To loop on what said Frankken_Ford.
I don’t decide the price of your house if i buy it. And i can’t tell you "ok, let’s count the cement, the bricks, the insulation … the factual material price minus their age and lets ignore the rest to don’t “maximize your profits”.
Dude, there is humans behind lol
But try to recruit someone able to handle such a nursery with constancy, good luck with that ^^ Sensi tried for cheap with the “Alan’s dream”. They never sold baddest seeds in their whole history, we talk about millions in sales losted and a leadership that belong only on the momentum of Ben.
Of course it earn well if you do the job, it’s canna buddy. But with constraints and inherent risks to this domain too. You don’t need only skills, but stainless steel balls too.
You’re an hobbyist spreading the love, not a professional able to provide hobbyists and professionals all year round. Take the sense of the mesure buddy, it’s not a side VS another side. There is a lot of chances that the cuts you’re talking about were initially traded for the price of a car, at its genesis, to become available.
It’s not even a decent scale if you only do this. It’s more by thousands. I will risk to say :
In Spain they sell by entire grodan arrays of 100/200, generally between 10€ and 30€. But it’s a totally different market : mothers come get their clones in family lol, grow ops that charge the trunk aside … cuts themselves have a complete different cycles and they like to have different selections from one year to another. A lot are also growing only one big time indoor in a single tent with bought clones, then they dismantle everything when jars are full.
I mean the list of use and needs is quite infinite, and for all prices.
True point, and it’s used for seeds and “consulting” too.
I guess it’s even more tense in USA with the banksters profiting from the situation, man … constant flow of cash. Their dream.
You have to create deficits to don’t be more raped anyway. Sometimes it’s just a bit comical ^^ But the scene oversea is relatively fresh, it will mature and structure more. The curve is totally crazy from my point of view, they do in a big dozen of years what they have done here in maybe an half century ^^ It’s to take in count too.
it’s a consideration to keep in mind, our plants have fiducial values now and are quoted in stock markets.
So, the game become more complex and with more layers of considerations.
It should affect the hobbyists. All moguls of this industry still source their weed in OUR scene. Scientific papers, big canadian facilities, grow ops of all forms … they all use “closet genetics” pedigrees even in aligning 5 Phd employees per sqm. Not joking one second.
It’s a more deep concern that it look at first glance.
There’s alot of silliness there.
Yall get spanked on the ass and ask for another. The guy is a shark… that’s OK… but why pretend like it’s anything other than what it is.
Enjoy the ride instead, share the perfect profile of the clone’s seller or whatever. If it’s to complaint in loop about a seller, it’s not really the good thread buddy.
Whatever that means. I hope someone calls me on my shit if I ever get so far from the pulse.
I make a new friend ^^ We both know what to do right ?
Can’t say I do
That’s interesting. Why do you value the cannabis you create at a lower price point than market value?
I didn’t realize this thread had been split off…
The market, i.e. the buyers, absolutely decide the value of a house. Most of these clone prices are determined by the hype in the market and how much profiteers like cloney can squeeze from buyers. That’s simple economics and not something I get bothered about. Generally speaking, there is not a massive cost difference between holding and propagating a free clone vs a $1k clone. I don’t really care if someone paid 5 figures for a single plant a lifetime ago. Then in the same breath you talk about Spain selling 200-300 clones for 20€.?
I absolutely understand that I’m a hobbyist and that there are professionals (clone sellers, seed breeders, and flower cultivators). I have other hobbies where I’d gladly drop several thousand for well engineered, practical tools, not padding the pockets of middlemen though. I think seed breeding is an order of magnitude more involved than slinging clones.
I don’t know the size of cloney’s operation, and I don’t mean to specifically single him out.
There is a massive difference between growing 1000 plants to full maturity and producing 1000 clones. I could probably make 1000 clones in my bedroom. He’s definitely not spending 5k a month. And even 1000 mature plants probably don’t need anywhere near 350sqmt.
Everyone has limits.
I personally think the best weed has yet to be grown. And likely all you will get from a middleman like cloney is something someone else did the work of breeding and hunting.
Again, I don’t think there’s any shame in buying from him, and I understand he fills a niche in the market. But it’s clear to me he does it for profit and not for love of the plant nor the desire to spread it around.
I’m not upset that people charge and other people pay these high prices for clones. But let’s not pretend it’s anything more than squeezing the market for as much money as possible. Which is not benefiting plebian growers like me. And is generally not in the spirit of this site, for whatever that’s worth.
@Indicana_Jones it’s just what I consider fair market value, kinda like not expecting to get MSRP for my 4 and a half yr old car even with low miles & squeaky clean 
.
It’s not that I value it less, but I’m saving more 
Wow this was a really good read. I forums
I found the discussion more clear without bumping two labels/brand/“name-it” all the time. Even if some prices of CS stimulate the passions obviously.
I believe that the market isn’t only the buyers. There is notion of timing, context, accidental factors … it’s not an omnipotent concept only based on the demand. You push a bit.
The international comparison was to give others perspectives. To let you know as well that this world of cheap cuts isn’t an utopia but habits of this country.
I’m sharing the point. But i see this more as a complementary dynamics.
The saturation of Americans labels (seed’s labels) in such short period is one the consequences of this symbiosis for me. On this point i can go very hardcore on prices, maybe even more radical than you on clones lol
In term of skills, it’s equal to my eyes at this scale. At this level anyway, you’re forced to know how to do both flawless.
I want to see this ^^ Even if you destroy them when rooted. Now if you live in a castle with enormous bedrooms it’s cheating lol
It was for a breeding facility, to give a scale. I’ve worked with a nursery who spent a lot more than 5K in counting the in-house tests, the employees and the three hangars rented ^^
Something like this, totally dedicated to clones. If you can do it in your bedroom, you’re just a fool to don’t already do it in my opinion ^^
If you was a bit more curious, you will know that i’m far more radical than this on the subject.
Now i don’t mix everything. These cuts are grow-op ones for the vast majority and proved their value in the streets, for the vast majority as well. If they were so easy to handle genetically (“work done”), it’s a discussion we will not have. There is nostalgia also playing, sometimes you just need to get back a given weed of the street in your space. It can be also as dumb than this.
If he don’t make profits, he don’t pay the bills. The fact that he chose a growth over the stagnation with these profits don’t really belong to us in my opinion. I searched something, passed a year to find it and i got it. It’s all i see : the factual advantage to spread this genetic around.
Your concern is more to ask to an activist. I lost totally the track since ~2010 in USA about this, i’m not talking about the youtube-money off course.
Factually … it’s not pretending whatever the drives behind. You don’t have enough US labels that pop overnight to consider this question in another angle ?
I see a lot of detail
Good details
I’ll add more uh
Seed/clone prices there’s a lot of factors. Educated customer, uneducated consumer, market sector, disposable income for mass consumer vs 10k clone for cash cropper expert. You know it, as it’s said.
So I’ll elaborate a bit, as you said
“Growers eat fems by the lb”
As it’s said on another thread, it’s not that there’s no market of regs
But most growers aren’t on cannabis forums, maybe they’re from a different country, different social media, who knows?
I see this guy on Facebook, he’s quite decent at growing, he’s got a following, what does he grow? It’s barney’s farm
I don’t hate too much on barneys farm, they put some effort in, but they’re the copycat company at this point. But this guy promotes to his followers.
So while we’re familiar with this community of ours (OG) that loves regs, it’s not the majority
So demand for fems is higher, but also, people are marketed and promoted to by various sources, commonly the internet or visual marketing etc showing this day of the shinest beautiful bud etc
So if you’re able to create demand for your bud, especially in this rapid iteration of American genetics (sherb, biscotti bx, perm marker, mean gene / aficionado, bloom seed co/schwale/little lake valley co for washing) or run huge pheno hunts like unnamed domestic abuser to sell 10k cuts, you might be able to get a quality following and profit, like jungle or swamp boys selling legal flower and seeds.
But otherwise, the economy is doing like shit and prosecution of cannabis in North America is, I think, at an all time low
Cannabis market go 
it’s a reality of legalization or grey market that innovation and scaling with legal or grey competition means you won’t get this “profit of risk of cultivating black market plant” money anymore unless you’re good at marketing and/or growing craft cannabis
It’s like craft beer, many breweries couldn’t make it compared to giant producerdistrubitor being able to sell the cheap light beer, even if it’s only tasting “alright” (or maybe worse, sorry)
Piss water won the market war, why? Because people buy what they can afford
