I think I’ll use a little Safer Soap, maybe, once a week as a just in case. It’s only two plants after all. It wouldn’t hurt to have a little insurance. lol
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Hey friends, it’s been a while and after a lot of happenings it’s time for an update!
First off I want to address those who have posted!
@slain - After reading about those mutagens and how crazy it can all get, I think I’ll leave that to those with the resources to be testing all this stuff. I find it fascinating to read about but for me personally I think organic is the way to go. When we start tampering with all that there’s literally an endless amount of variables when you consider that no two cannabis plants are identical, just as even identical twins are different. For those who have the courage I salute their courage into the unknown but for me I want to mimic nature. Thanks for posting though it’s really interesting!
@Strainger - That is one heck of a crazy plant there! It looks to me like it would be very difficult to trim but I suppose you probably tinker with it a little bit each day?
@holygroveseed - Thanks for sharing that link; I put in an order in. 
Seeds should arrive tomorrow. I’m thrilled all of your BX #7’s came up. Also it would be awesome if you’d share the progress of Freaks of Dank from 7East on here when you get those going. Your idea for hybridizing with your MZPV line sounds good too! Should be some really exciting stuff in the progeny. Will they be indoor or outdoor?
@Mobilly - They look beautiful! No pest indication to me of any kind. Some phenos can be kind of squat with the Supafreak. It looks like you just have a slight variation in the leaf type between the two. The bigger one there’s like those little thin strands which go into the main stem of the leaf. The smaller pheno there’s a lot less of those strands where the pinnate leaf begins. It’s easy to show in person but kind of hard to explain online. Either way those plants are extremely good looking and are on their way to a bountiful harvest! Have they shown sex yet?
@middleman - I need to chat with you; I’ll send a message later!
Alright now with formalities tended to, time for an update! Holy smokes a lot has been going on lately. Here’s what I got going on:
In flowering I have my prized BerryFreak, Menthol Skunk, and Tentazione females all making seed. They should be ready for harvest in 2-3 weeks I would imagine, but I haven’t seen them for a bit. I’ll try to get update photos as soon as I can but I don’t care for those daily.
As far as what I have going on right now most of it is outside but I did find something I could not pass up. The Landrace Team released Sumatran Banda Aceh as a landrace available in extremely limited quantities, such they didn’t even offer it on their main website. After researching into this cultivar and finding a couple photos online I couldn’t pass it up. I ordered 10 seeds; 1 arrived smashed. Out of the 9 seeds I believe I have 6 seedlings but I do have to say it’s been a very difficult cultivar to germinate. There’s absolutely no vigor to the seeds. This leads me to believe the line is very pure and very inbred. Here’s what we have so far: (6th under dome)
If a male Aceh (pronounced Atjeh) presents himself I’ll make repro seeds, many of them. If no male presents I will use a Devil’s Malawi male on them which should maintain that excellent high the Aceh has while also bringing sexual stability into the mix. Here’s the Malawi:
As far as the mutants I have going outside here’s what we have. A V9 Tiger, Drunken Bastard, Giant Pur Pur, Menthol Skunk, and 3 Mnogolistka which idk what to do with. You’ll see:
So these last 2 are the Mnogolistka. I put them outside in April and they flowered, when I was pollinating my V9 Tiger with Black Rose before I culled that male I also dusted these ladies. I’ve harvested about 200 seeds which most are perfect so I can’t decide whether I want to chop these or what. I like the idea of seeing if they’ll flower normally as I never got to sample them without seeds. One of them for sure I’ll cull because it just looks terrible and never wanted to stand up straight.
I have some other stuff but it’s just for bud so I won’t post photos until I have bud to show for it.
I wanted to take the rest of the post (without getting too long) to explain my plans. Rounding out 2023 I am mostly working with the Malawi and Aceh, making more seeds of each. I’m very motivated to see this cross to fruition. In 2024 I plan to make only one F1 pairing and then everything else will be mutant repros. So I have 2 locations with both indoor and outdoor capacity now. I will do a Mnogolistka F1 cross in the spring with Bodhi’s Dragonsblood Hashplant v2. The idea is to introduce a high brix red sap gene into the Mnogolistka.
After that then I want to do a sultan breed with each mutant strain I have. This is a little complicated. I have like… 12-13 mutant strains now, all unique. Some of them fall within a type like ‘ABC’ for example. I plan on using 1 strain for the male, pollinating 3-4 different strains within the same type. I have 3 of these crosses I plan for 2024, along with the Mnogolistka F1s. Many of these seeds also have hybrids so it will be interesting. Typically I am fine with around 50 plants/yr but next year I want to plant like 200-300 and cull the ones which don’t fit the leaf types I’m after. It will be a big undertaking so I need to take as much time and grind now so that next year I have the time and resources to do these crosses. Each cross is like a minimum of 50 seeds germinated with an ideal end of probably 2-3 males and 12-15 females, all mutants. Maybe I’ll have to make a pictograph that might be easier 
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Thanks crunkyeah. That was a perfect description of what I see.
As far as male or female. I tried to get a picture, yesterday, of what I see but I shake sometimes. To my old eyes it looks like I may have two male plants. That’s not a total loss to me because I have plans (that my wife told me I have made) for any pollen that I might end up with. Ideally I’ll have one of each but I’m pretty sure about one and iffy about the other at the moment.
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Fingers crossed 1 boy and 1 girl~!
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If I have one of each, I’ll move the male to the far side of the property and collect what pollen I can. Then I’ll dust a branch for more seeds and use the rest to make a cross that interests me. Hopefully the mutant gene will be seen in some f2’s then the fun begins … etc etc etc…
I’m totally new to all this and have a lot to research on the steps though. 
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Actually the cross was my wife’s idea. She’s taking interest so I’ll run with it. lol
It does sound interesting to me as well though.
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Which one did you get? There were a few different options from PBLH. I’m thinking of growing out some of the Acer next year and trying to select for the one with the long lasting effect if I don’t get one like that this year. One Freaks of Dank seed has come up so far, planted them on 7/5/23 in my living soil blend after a 2 hour diluted peroxide soak. I will post a picture when they’re all up.
The Freaks of Dank x MZPV cross is the one I’m most excited about aside from maybe the Beldia Kif x Ethiopia Highlands cross I will be attempting in the next two or three weeks. I am growing outdoor, Freaks of Dank + non-mutants (Wedding Cake x PCK, Terp Squirt, Synthesis, Ethiopia Highlands, Filipino Kibungan, Valley of Pines CBDV, Lolab AC/DC F2, Amsterdam Amnesia x MZPV, MZPV, Purple Dragon x Tropic Soda, a Tropical Fuel cross from @Ottafish, Kumaoni from @Upstate, some other MZPV / MZPV CBD hybrids if female) in a big 60" round fabric bed with living soil and clover/chickweed/rayless chamomile living mulch. Densely planted, but I will manage it so they have enough root/lightspace. I will be growing out some of the (TW x GG4 RIL) x ABC hybrids from @middleman in pots and interspersed in garden beds. The Acer x Pablo BX #7 will likely all go together in a 10 or 15 gallon pot.
Really interested to see the results of your grow this year, you’ve got some wild looking mutants.
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@holygroveseed - I got one pack of Nigerian Duckfoot and one pack of Acer 1. I too would like to find one of those good phenos (10’ +) which have the wonderful high described. When I do this run in 2024 I will also germinate Lemon Alien (non-serrate duck) and my Duckweb IBL; I plan to have a Nigerian Duckfoot male sultan breed into Acer 1, Duckweb, Lemon Alien, and making Nigerian Duckfoot F2s. I absolutely LOVE the idea of landraces bred into mutants for that increased vigor and just keeping the old school stuff alive. At some point people will get sick of high THC modern strains, and want the feel-good strains of old. In this light I continue my breeding.
It sounds like you have a ton of wonderful combinations of plants to hunt through to find good partners for the mutants! Just so you know if you plan on making your own mutant crosses your best bet is to use female mutants and outcross with other males. It seems to be a lot more work hunting for mutant leaf types through the father’s progeny rather than the mother’s.
Please keep us updated with your progress as you go along! And feel free to share anything in this thread you think people may want to see, even non-mutants. The way to improving these mutants is for everyone to take them in their own direction. Years from now we can breed all the ‘new mutants’ together for some recombinant vigor! Should be fun at the very least.
Well it seems that the results of this year’s grow will be mostly non-mutants (F1 outcrosses) but I’m so excited for those I can’t even describe it. Next year will be full blown mutants all year long. I would enjoy making 100k new mutant seeds, and dispersing them to those in need.
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Spent the last half hour making up this little pictograph. Probably the most efficient way to show the seeds I’ve made and the plans I have. The black outlines represent indoor crosses and the white outlines represent outdoor crosses.
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Love the breakdown.
I’m super excited to see how they all go! Mnogolistka, TK Dooligah and abc special will be awesome to watch
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Nice graph. I’d have tondo it on paper lol. Still a tech dummy.
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Ironically writing it down on paper and using a highlighter with 2 different color pens gave me the inspiration to make the digital version. Too funny. 
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Do you know of anyone who has attempted this with cannabis seeds? I have a few hundred seeds of the Amsterdam Amnesia x MZPV from last year and thought this could be interesting to try and plant out once my seedling rack is mostly clear in two months. 60 seeds in caffeine, 60 seeds in theobromine, plant them out, see what happens.
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That Duckfoot sultan cross you have planned for 2024 sounds incredible, and the Acer 1 x Nigerian Duckfoot will likely produce some very powerful plants. I am glad others are thinking about hybridizing landrace strains with mutants to preserve these sacred genetics and help them reach corners of the Earth they might otherwise not reach.
Your discussion of your breeding process has given me a lot to think about over the past few days, specifically using the differing flowering times of plants to accommodate multiple photoperiod pollinations. Yesterday I put the Ethiopian male outside in the raised bed because I wanted to make sure it would pollinate the Beldia Kif. This morning, I sexed/culled the MZPV selections from last year leaving only four females and one male. All went in the big raised bed and got a quick foliar/root drench of FPJ. I wish I had planted out a few more since I only ended up with one male with good tropical fruit aromatics, the rest had a hemp seed / flax seed / walnut skin aroma. I am learning a lot from my mistakes this year. So now I am trying to decide how I want to plan the pollinations in light of all that.
After doing some thinking, I’ve decided on trying to only use landraces to pollinate the mutant plants because it is more important work…undecided now on if I still want to do the MZPV male crossed with Freaks of Dank (4/7 seeds up now). I will be trying to select for good males from the Kumaoni and Filipino Kibungan gene pools. I also had an idea for a cross I want to do next year with the most fuel heavy Freaks of Dank plant, crossing it with the very unique MARKAZ BABOOS LOGAR #9 selection from ILE to select for a Black narrow leaflet Freakshow mutant with extreme Solvent notes.
By excited to see the results of your grow I meant more just what the mature plants would look like since a lot of them are very unique, but I am very curious to see the results of the F2 as well.
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@holygroveseed - If you do the tests on those seedlings let us know how that goes! Might provide some really good data for others to expand on. I think the science behind all this is extremely fascinating but for me I want to keep things natural.
As far as the landrace mutant hybrids go, I salute you. I agree that the landraces probably offer the most beneficial traits to the mutants. I am curious to see what affect a modern hybrid would have on a mutant as well. Then there’s the unlimited possibilities with new leaf types as we blend mutants together. There’s literally endless combinations we could do…
I will also say, this isn’t by design but I don’t have any Indian strains. I have sativa landraces and hybrids from all over but nothing with strong Indian genes. It will be exciting to see what you’re able to accomplish! Over the next several years I will probably repro mutants galore but at some point I want to outcross and make my own mutants, namely with landraces. I would like to take lines into CBD only, as well as having potent (26%+) mutants too. Maybe someday I’ll meet up with someone who has the space for 10+ seed runs simultaneously and needs a partner. Until then, snail’s pace 
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@crunkyeah I am generally in the same boat when it comes to keeping things natural but my curiosity and the low toxicity of the mutagens involved and surplus seeds have won out I am still undecided if I want to use caffeine/theobromine isolates or make concentrated water extracts from caffeine containing plants (I would likely try yaupon, yerba mate, guayusa, black tea, and robusta coffee if I went this route). Need to read more the research behind it so I can do a well designed test of it.
I have no doubt that there could be some very special mutant crosses from modern hybrids, since some of them are very special! Beyond just wanting to trying preserve landrace genetic as mutant hybrid lines, I can’t guarantee that the MZPV male I have will be the best expression of that gene pool for a cross with the mutants. I’m trying to find the most special male plant for that and the landrace seeds I’ll be growing out are the best place to look. I already have the citrus/lilac Ethiopia Highlands male as a backup, which will reveg for a bit before flowering again.
I have focused on Himalayan Sativas from India and Nepal and some shorter flowering African landraces since they are the landrace Sativas best adapted to the climate where I live outdoors with the potential for periods of heavy summer rain and heat, cold and wet autumn, and snow/frost by November/December. I was only able to grow Parvati one year and then the hybrids with SOA’s Mozambica that formed the base of the MZPV line, but that was enough to make me seek out more to grow this year and next year, the Kumaoni and Tosh Valley. I really hope to make some excellent seeds to share this year and next year.
I too wish I had the capacity to do the kind of parallel breeding work that larger scale seed breeders are doing. Maybe someday. In the meantime, I’m content focusing on what I can do with what I have and seeing all the other interesting work other breeders are doing, like yourself and others on this site. I also would like to see exponentially multiplying leaf diversity in cannabis!
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No I have only read of process, but it seems simple enough that it is worth a try if you have the seeds to spare, if you do try it let us know how you go.
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Just throwing this out there… why not a controlled experiment?
Batch A - regular germination
Batch B - germination with isolates
Batch C - germination with plant based compounds
I’m on board with whatever you decide to do! If you would share here your findings that would be awesome.
I think there’s value in keeping the ‘original mutants’ intact. Once we blend mutants together we can’t un-blend them.
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Agreed, its important to learn from the mistakes of the cannabis breeders of the past. Not sure if you intended to have this apply to the caffeine mutagen experiments as well but if I end up doing a controlled experiment and documenting it here, I would have to be careful about preserving the genetics of a novel mutation. Probably by keeping a mother plant and then when I had time making an S1 for an initial round of preservation.
7/13 edit update: One of the Freaks of Dank seedlings damped off but two others have germinated. I suspect these plants have fairly weak root / vascular systems, not sure if its from the Freakshow or the modern polyhybrid genetics in the cross since this is my first time growing a Freakshow mutant. I did a brief dilute peroxide soak and planted out another 6 because I’m realizing I will want to have the option of doing some selection for vigor / growth and right now I have 4, possibly 5 seedlings that look like they’re going to make it and they’re growing slower than every other plant. Acer x Pablo BX #7 seedlings are very healthy and are among the fastest growing of the current cannabis seedlings, which is a big relief.
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