So, is a ‘fast version’ a plant with a shorter ‘dark period’ for its photoperiod? i.e. it transitions to flowering with 9-10 hours of darkness instead of 12? Or does it have stronger bud growth by focusing its energy on that instead of height and foliage?
I assume its the later, as what I found on google suggested they still need a 12/12 cycle to switch. But that does make me wonder…
When growing indoors, what about pheno-hunting mutants that grow well in the vegetative phase 23/1, and switch to flowering at 18/6?
That kind of mutant would do more photosynthesis during the flowering phase without bumping up the lighting intensity to reach the same DLI. That would make grow rooms much cheaper, as you wouldn’t need to have overcapacity in unused lighting, just for the flowering phase.
Outdoor plants start to flower after the summer solstice when daylight hours are still over 14 or so ,but decreasing daily. A fast pheno has picked up a combination of regular and automatic traits so it starts flowering earlier. The flower times are fairly consistent, so to finish flower earlier, they have to start sooner.
I consider fast versions as photo sensitive lines. Outdoors they respond quicker to the natural decrease in solstice hours. Fast versions trigger flowering in July while traditional photoperiod lines trigger in august.
There are a hand full of companies offering fast version options, but there’s still a void depending on what characteristics you’re looking for. It’s pretty cool that Terpyz even has a mutant option available.
holy smokes… i go on a weeklong biz trip and everyone blew up this thread while i was away fantastic!
i’ll address the comments and posts before i do my own update. without further adieu…
@Monst3rbean - welcome aboard the mutant train pleased to have ya with us. also glad to hear you’re growing on the 47th as well. i do have to say i think crop yields up north here have a bit to do with genetics as well as how you start them. do you start them early, then transplant once soil warms? direct sow once temps are high enough? here, it’s cold and harsh for this time of year. i can say without any doubt that any good cultivar will be productive here. it’s just a matter of finding robust genetics. in my experience indoor-bred lines seem to have a harder time. anything cultivated outdoors seems to be robust, but of course every location is different…
@Acro - your abc specimen seems like one which has many beneficial traits! if possible i would take a cutting of that plant and try to maintain it. although it seems like you have the right idea by taking an f1 progeny and backcrossing to her. she looks very healthy and happy. great work. i’m hoping as you transition into flower that stretch is pronounced and prevalent. if it does you’ll have an above average abc specimen; awesome. thanks for sharing.
for your question regarding mutant and variegated expressions in s1… basically you have to look at s1 like a f1 cross. depending on the methodology of selfing (whether you use 1 specimen or 2) you could see quite a bit of variation in the progeny. i’m firmly against the selfing and feminization process, so i can’t comment on exactly what you’ll see in the progeny. however, i can say from the research that i’ve done that they ‘should’ maintain the traditional inheritance patterns when it comes to dominance and co-dominance. expect to sort through a bunch of seeds to find the mutants. if you continue to in-breed/line breed the occurrences should increase if you select mutant parents to continue the line.
@Movement13 - your berryfreaks look like they’re well on their way to become big beautiful plants! i see you’ve posted a couple updates as they’ve grown. they to tend to be a little slow in the beginning but once you get to about the 8-9’th node they seem to pick up speed in growth. do you have any plans to breed them, or just wanting to find some good females to experience her? either way, great work and keep it up!
@Magu - i have revegged a couple of abc-type specimens and i will say they seem to behave (to me) like any regular canna plant when it comes to flowering and revegging. i haven’t had any issues with cloning, so it seems like a regular plant other than the crazy leaf type!
i also find your abc x freak cross quite intriguing! it would have been nice to see about a dozen varieties from both sides (abc vs. freak) but i’m thrilled you were able to find mutated types in your own f2s! i can’t be certain but i do believe some of the intersex traits lie dormant on the freak side. i’ve never experiencing any intersex with both abc types and with freak types, but i was told my menthol skunk v1 types were extremely hermy-prone. in my v2 types i didn’t see any male flowers on my females. i wasn’t graced with the presence of a male either so it’s tough for me to comment on what might be going on here. really cool to see though! thanks for sharing.
@Hashpants - looks like you may have found one of the ‘ideal’ freak type specimens! from the few that i’ve grown, i’ve noticed that the larger the first true leaf set is, the better the freak will be. i don’t have tons of experience with the freaks but after the ones i’ve grown i have noticed the bigger they are, the better they are. hopefully it’s continuing to see bigger and bigger fan leaves as it goes! thanks for sharing.
@anonymous510 - here is a really good resource to read to comprehend the lineage and work behind the freak lines.
when it comes to berryfreak specifically, that’s a project that the son picked out of the original freakshow cross. as i recall, the father went with freak males and the son picked out an exceptional female to work with. i truly believe the son went the better way with it, but that’s just my opinion.
@mrsquiggle - first, welcome to og! i’m honored you decided to save your first post for this thread. welcome aboard! in my state we have a legal limit of 2 plants. that’s not limited to females. we have a strict limit of 2 plants, period. i can’t have 2 in veg and 2 flowering, nope. it’s 2, period. currently i have almost 50 growing. i will never encourage someone to break the law, however i will say if you can keep your secret private you shouldn’t have much to worry about. here, i have wide open spaces and relatively low risk. if you don’t have a place that’s low risk, the plant count really doesn’t matter. it’s too risky either way. i really wouldn’t worry about the amounts you have unless the authorities have direct access to your plants and produce. of course i do need to say that you have to use your own discretion on the matter.
first i would try to find a cultivar which fits your agenda. of all the mutant types, abc types are known for being relatively low smell plants. i would start there. one of the issues with traditional ‘non-stink’ abc types is that they can also be low yielders and sometimes low potency, so there’s always a balance that must be taken into account. there’s a lot of variety out there these days, so ultimately it comes down to what you desire and what you’re willing to sacrifice to meet your goals.
you’d be absolutely shocked at how many abc plants you can keep in veg in a small space with relatively low amounts of light compared to the sun. it might be fruitful to buy a very small setup for seedling starts indoors. once the plants are large enough to endure nature on their own you could then select the top 3 which will then be given a shot outdoors? food for thought!
if i were you i would either look into some of the abc autos, or go with the drunken bastard line from 7East. those abc cultivars (in my eyes) will be your best bet for finding the plants which you seek. they seem to produce well, as well as remain discrete. the effects are good too! it seems to be that the newer abc lines (worked more) have also increased in smell and noticeability so they’re not exactly ‘stealth’ plants anymore. i have some going right now that are quite aromatic and discernable to the right nose, regardless of how zany they look.
to your question regarding yields, there’s so much variation in the mutant lines right now because lots of people have figured out how breeding for mutants works in practice. the lowest yielding type by far is abc, but in the last 2 years there has been extremely promising headway made in terms of bringing it into the modern canna market. just like regular cannabis, large flowers can be hard to find. it really comes down to how much space you have and how many plants you’re willing to sort through to find the bigger specimens.
the best hash variety without doubt would be a freakshow line. it’s the most resinous mutant i’ve grown by far. your results will vary. i do tend to agree with Monst3rbean’s outlook that you should look for types which will handle your climate first and foremost. abc types LOVE hot warm bright sunlight, but some types also handle the cold equally as well. when i grew out the drunken bastard f3 i noticed a couple of those specimen did fine outside when it was below 0C.
@PhilCuisine - that ogre looks like a mighty fine plant! at first i was having a hard time seeing the ‘mutant’ of this plant but i was looking too closely! i had to step back and look at my screen from afar to see it. the structure and internodal distances make me really ponder if sensi star might have a recessive phenotype which turns into duckfoot. the origins of that place are still a mystery and sensi star is a well established strain from the recent past, especially in europe. when i see those flowers they look very reminiscent of duckweb’s flowers. it’s tough to tell but it also appears under natural sunlight that some of those emerging pistils might be light pink or red. that trait is more common in duck types than any other strain i’ve seen. thanks for sharing! she looks mighty fine for enjoyment!
as i get settled from my trip and the lag is slowly retreating… i’ll get to transplanting my mutants and updating today. since i’m back i will also be beginning my aquaponics adventures. stay tuned!
I found your posts on mutants a few months ago (here and Crunky’s corner), and was immediately a fan of your work. Now that cannabis cultivation is legal in Germany, I thought I would give it a go. I’m actually not a weed smoker anymore for decades, but might be tempted to partake if it’s a good grow I did myself. As far as growing more than a few plants, I have the immediate issue of both the law and space. In the area I live in, having a 1/4 acre block like the regular Aussie style garden is simply unaffordable for the middle class.
I think I found a nice loophole though to get over the three plant limit. Here in Germany, you can form a Cannabis Club, for the non-profit production of flowers solely to club members.
With a small group of members, we could start a breeding program of unlimited plants, so long as we don’t supply more than 50 gram per member per month. Another benefit is that you can legally pass on seeds and cuttings to other members.
If that idea works, I want to run another idea by you, on the topic of mutants:
I ofter see pictures posted of ‘frosty’ buds, with pretty extreme frosting on the sugar leaves. To me, this makes me think that fan leaves also have to potential to produce a lot of trichomes. I assume that the plant hormone levels during flowering trigger the development of trichomes on leaves near the buds, as the hormone levels there are high.
If thats the case, then maybe we could find a mutation where leaves are either super sensitive to the hormone or just grow as if the hormone is already there (as is the case for auto flowering plants with the florigen hormone).
Do you think it might be feasible to breed for frosty tan leaf plants in the vegetative stage?
I’m imagining growing plants like tea, where you could continuously crop mother plants in veg, and process them for bubble hash.
Yeah, I agree different lines have different results and we all deal with diverse local environments. For me, some lines have performed better than others in some characteristic way or another. I’ve never had an issue getting some monsters in size but as a whole they tend to lack in yield compared to what they would have produced indoor. I can only attribute that is due to cold temperatures during flower. In a heated green house or in photo dep, hindering in bud development has not been noticeably present with photo dependents lines.
Ill try to answer your question, but I’ve pretty much tried it all. Pre grown indoors, direct sow in ground and in pots. Early planting, late planting to a direct to flower sow. Open field production, light dep, hot house, greenhouse, pre flowered indoors brought outdoor to finish and mid flowering outdoor brought indoor to finish.
I couldn’t list all the lines I’ve ran. I remember standouts and some of the more devastating outcomes. But as for outdoor bred lines I’ve ran multiple landrace afi, paki, and some Himalayan. When it comes to flowering, they still seem to always lack a bit unless flowered early with photo dep or given warm temps in a greenhouse.
So, whenever a new grower asks about northern outdoor grows, I always point them towards the old Dutch semi autos, the new fast versions or to the full autos depending on their personal situations. I feel it gets them closer to their desired goals without risking disappointment or having to dive into environment controlled green houses or undertaking the efforts of a photo dep.
that sounds awesome! make sure you completely understand the landscape in which you are playing there.
yes, yes i do. the berryfreak line or menthol skunk definitely have frosty leaves during veg. wow, thinking about the implications of trying to create such a plant which you never intentionally flower… what a concept. first, outdoors i would think this to be nearly impossible and even indoors at some point the plants are going to want to flower whether you want them to or not. i’m not going to go into it too much because i don’t find it practical. if it is possible i think you have quite a bit of experimenting and finding the right plants which would be a possibly completely new avenue of cannabis if you so chose. that would be a path you would have to blaze though
@Monst3rbean - i completely understand your reasonings and can concur, colder temps in northern climates definitely hinder flower production. that said, i’ve always found the resulting flower better than any indoor counterpart. similar to how my garden veggies are better than store-bought. i’ve been wanting to experiment with autos outdoors since they often will finish well before the cold even begins, plus they’re flowering during the most intense sunlight of our natural cycle, so that’s nice.
There is some magic in good old sunshine. A few years back I had to leave town for a few days and watered everything heavy before I left. Came back to find one of my girls suffering from root rot so I plopped her outside. To my amazement she recovered and didn’t show one lick of sickness till very late in flower.
If you want to try some autoflower just pm me a safe addy and ill pass some along.
Happy to get you a cutting, hit the DM’s when you’re ready
She’s been growing nicely. While she can’t keep up with the post vigorous autos I popped at the sane time as her, she’s outgrown all of the other photos and berry single plant that struggled through stress testing.
I’ve only lollipopped and taken a handful of leaves. The first clone I tried turned out to be a leaf The first actual clone rooted in under 10 days in the aerocloner and at three weeks today is starting the take off and has doubled in size.
for sure! nature knows best imo. as far as autos go, thanks but i think i’m good collecting seeds for now. i may hit you up in the future though. auto-flower nature has always been frustrating to me because i like to clone my good plants and auto-flowers just don’t care about my plans. i haven’t adjusted to their ways, yet. i do have a really good batch of autos which breed dominant for the auto gene which is kind of exciting in itself as a breeding tool. i will surely let everyone know if i end up growing those at some point.
@mrsquiggle - did you end up starting your thread? if i ever find a specimen which breeds really frosty leaves in veg i will be sure to let you know! regarding freakshow x gpp i have seen a couple attempts by someone in germany online but i don’t believe they knew about the xx-linking on the freakshow side so they didn’t get the desired results of the blending of both strains. if we wanted to do that cross we would need a fine freaky female mixed with a strong gpp male. in those f1 progeny the males should be 50% freaky and the females will be normal. crossing any of two partners will result in theoretical ~5-10% specimen which will inherit all the leaf traits desired. i’ve tried to stay away from the blending of the lines because at some point each mutant will be considered an ‘heirloom’ if maintained in pure form. that’s why i plan to maintain each line before i begin any work on a dual-mutant. gpp can grow massive and freakshow is extremely resinous with good flowers. combined and pheno hunted … yeah it could be brilliant no doubt about it!
@anonymous510 - yep, it’s quite detailed and a bit more ‘substance’ than most of the articles i’ve read about ‘freakshow’.
@Acro - i might have to take you up on that one, standby is she still in veg?
@Water - that looks to be true variegation! quite cool they are extremely healthy and good looking. thanks for sharing
update time:
before i post the photos i have to share a few things. i have been battling what i want to do with my aquaponic setup with food vs canna growing/breeding for some time. most of it comes down to sizing it appropriately for my needs, no matter if it’s food or canna. ideally i need to purchase my own property and the way things are going that’s going to take me years to do so i’m kind of torn about the size of my temporary setup and all components. it’s going to take me some more time to get going as i also want to transition away from the forums and move my updates onto a telegram channel where it’s extremely easy for me to move into a video format rather than posting photos. it’s 2024 i need to get with it
as far as plants are concerned i’ve got a mixed bag. the weather here is still harsh from winter. we’re having rough winds and storms almost daily and night time temps of around 3-4C (38-42F). it forced many of the multileaf males to initiate flowering which was actually kind of helpful because i’m hunting for a male which doesn’t flower fast. every male i’ve found so far is a fast guy. i want one ‘photo multi male’. i have 7 tries.
here i have some tk dooligah mixed with what i believe to be 7 multi females. i removed all the other plants, both males and females. there’s a couple tk dooligah which seem they might be leaders of the pack which i’m eager to see what time and nature does to them. the multi plants are going to location 2. i’ll take cuts of them before flower. would be really pleased to find a high yielding type which has multi-flowers instead of abc-flowers. tk dooligahs will be planted in the garden once i get enough energy to till the ground and sow some cover crops in addition to the dooligah plants. i don’t have enough energy with everything going on to do a garden this year. i’m aiming to have a small greenhouse built before summer’s over so i can grow small batches without harsh winds.
4 tk dooligah which got transplanted a few weeks ago. they’ve endured more weather than the grouped up ones in the tray above. still doing their thing though… eventually weather will get warm and then they’re going to explode!
this hyperion girl. i figure having some really good hybrid f1s can never be a bad thing. hyperion x tentazione f2 would be an excellent cross for anyone wanting a high yielding potent modern plant.
here are a couple of grape pupil x devil’s malawi f1 that my brother made last year with my males which were in the garden with his plants. they are female and going to be flowered soon i think.
No worries, similar feelings here. I’ve downsized my collection a lot in the past year or two, try to only pick up things that fit into my planned projects. Let me know if you change your mind though.
fantastic!
The first actual clone rooted in under 10 days in the aerocloner and at three weeks today is starting the take off and has doubled in size.
is she still in veg?
they are extremely healthy and good looking. thanks for sharing 
