Subcool Seed Run Ethics

So Sub’s passing has left a question in my mind. When the original breeder passes, but leaves behind a legal structure that maintains control over the breeders work, would permission need to be obtained, (like with Bodhi), from that legal entity to do preservation runs on those strains?

I saw a thread where a guy has some Space Queen, he may run/donate. Based on current seed preservation run etiquette, that would be acceptable because SQ is discontinued, but I have a 5 pack of Vortex, which is still available, and I’d like to do an official seed run on it, but I’m not sure that’s appropriate.

What do you all think?


I say lets preserve the mans work. From the interviews ive heard of sub he was all about seminating the plant.


you should, with out fear,In fact most of his genetics were reproduced and distributed by someone else, there is not much difference.
Also, your aim is to preserve and not coping or distributing with any monetary exchange, so In my opinion, I think it should not be a problem.


he would be happy that your making seeds , just got done pollen chucking ,afgoo overdrive ,its the only strain of his ever had a chance to run so yeah made tons of seeds out of a five pack four were fem ,also chucked pollen from that male at hi elevations acai juice.


I dont think there should be any moral issues with preserving and spreading the work of subcool after his passing. As long as credit is givin and his work isnt sold as anybody elses, that it will help insure his legacy lives on and will allow people to appreciate his efforts for years to come.


Since we’re on the subject, who is in charge of subcools estate, as far as seed sales? I grew some Chernobyl somewhere between ‘08 and ‘11 that was phenomenal


No one needs to ask permission to do anything with seeds.

If you acquired seeds through honest means, they’re yours.

Do whatever you will with them.


In fact, his work is being continued by others, under his name. I’m sure he would want his legacy enhanced. I don’t think ANYONE can legally stop reproduction of his goodness. Just 2 cents!!!


Is subs family going to continue selling his lines?

If not than I wouldn’t worry about it at all and even if they did your giving away F2s not selling F1s


Like @vernal said, you buy the seeds and they are yours to so what you want with them.

Cannabis doesn’t enjoy the same protections that other plants do, like Infringement laws. There is no PBR (Plant Breeders Rights) or PVR (Plant Variety Rights) available for cannabis, just yet.


Even if they did, PVPA only applies to new, unique, distinct, and uniform varieties. I am not sure very many offerings today meet that litmus test. Many of the ones that do, have been around longer than 25 years. DJ Short straight up told me on IG he was willing to take people to court over it, if he could. He frames it as a quality control issue but I think we all know it’s about money. I notice the only people clamoring for this are guys selling high dollar packs.

People asking permission just reinforces this idea that breeders who mostly somehow have a say in how you use seeds you purchased fair and square. I see people asking permission just to make crosses for personal use it’s almost bizarre.


Just to play devil’s advocate @vernal where do you stand on things like a person taking any work out there and f2ing it for sale? I put up a person like copycat. I have no feelings as to what copycat is doing. What’s wrong with that? Just a question to get some thoughts going :wink:


No problem with anything as long as the lineage is properly noted. If you’re gonna sell regular seeds and charge a lot for them, people are going to make more.

I F2’d some Bandaid Haze and caught some flak for it. Not like I care, but the sentiment is there among other people. Everything out there came from someone else. Otherwise, all these breeders out there would be paying royalties to Sensi Seedbank, Skunkman Sam, Neville, Shanti, etc. But I don’t see any checks getting sent.


Yeah I know that you got some strong questions online about that Band-aid Haze. I got some of them from you. But it’s a double edge sword to some degree I get putting in years of selection and holding backups and all that goes with breeding. I know I wouldn’t want guys coming behind me and just messing with my lines. To some degree I get DJ shorts point. Idk I love this plant. It’s good subject matter.


RC cola is pretty tasty, but Coke will always outsell it. Nothing is THAT unique, or exclusive to one person. Many breeders are putting in less time than you’d think. From how DJ describes it, his selection numbers aren’t too much more than mine, and he wants $200+ a pack.

Doc D, for example, instantly sells out of every Bandaid Haze line he offers. Argument there for forced exclusivity not being a smart strategy with seeds. Doc D isn’t even the original creator of Bandaid Haze, Bodhi is. He certainly didn’t find the Cuban Black Haze clone and A5 Haze/Thai came from Europe.

Think of me like the truck stop bathroom cologne dispenser. “Our impression of Acqua di Gio”. It’s close but if you want the original, it’s not like you don’t know where to go. If I buy show guppies for $100/pair you best bet I’m gonna breed 'em.

While we’re at it let’s kick some royalties to the Afghan/Pakistani hash farmers who’ve been tending the same plots for 1000 years and where all these Dutch companies got their broadleaf genes from.


Willy Jack was ripping breeder’s off selling his inferior f2s in the 90s way before copycat. He never labelled them as f2s and would use the breeder’s strain names too, he sold in direct competition with the actual breeder’s undercutting their prices because he was a greedy piece of shit. I’ve heard copycat is a smoldering pile of shit also.

Regardless of any ones thoughts or feeling on the topic it boils down to this.

If someone wants to make f2s no one can stop them.
If they want to sell said f2s no one can stop them.
If people want to buy said f2s and they know what they’re buying that’s their business.
If people run the seeds and they’re garbage that’s their loss.

I don’t have a problem with f2s as much as I do people lying about the genetics or makeup of the plants and seeds. Making S1 seeds with a bag seed and selling them as S1 from an actual elite cutting like copycat and others only helps to degrade the genetics on the market.


I have the space queen but dont fancy myself a breeder. I will most likely end up just passing them on to someone. I have plenty of older seeds I would be more eager to grow as I’m not much of a sativa guy.


Did Joey Weed catch any static from making F2 of the more popular varieties at the time? He always labelled everything as such, if I remember. AK47, C99, Widow, BB, etc. Further, most people thought they were pretty much as good as the original.


I do remember a lot of people being upset by his actions but it never stopped him. I looked for a found my last Mark Emery seed catalog from his Cannabis Culture magazine. WJ Ak47 (f2) $50 VS SS Ak47 for $225


I get that being a seed breeder in the dark days of complete prohibition was also something that deserved more compensation, especially with all the extra attention. Most of these guys live in legal states now with significantly reduced/no risk. I saw a video of Exotic Mike driving a Lamborghini because his Benz was in the shop. Tells me everything I need to know.