Announcement/general discussion thread about changes to seed runs

[Vesti]

@DougDawson - Not picking on you here, but you seem to be the mouthpiece of the coop.

It’s good we are relieving @Sebring of this pressure, it had to be a lot to deal with especially on his own. It also makes a lot of sense to establish a network of distributors.

Having said that, and with no disrespect toward any of the board members - what qualifies this group to make executive decisions as to what genetics are viable and worthy? Surely in itself the means and willingness to handle distribution does not automatically equate to expertise or critical thinking on the matter.

[quote=“DougDawson, post:21, topic:83613”] These are criteria that will be looked at on a case by case basis.
[/quote]

This dismisses rather than answers @Foreigner’s question. Unless you can articulate the broad outlines of a methodology or set of criterial questions the “case by case” response reads as a lackluster stand-in for “we will decide arbitrarily.”
Can you put some methodological meat on the bones for us?

@DougDawson

Remember the fact that OG 1 was shut down for seed sales

Also, help me out here,

What bearing does the OG1/Emery fiasco have to do with our current situation? That line reads like something of a fear-mongering straw man, as if OG presently hangs in the balance.

@DougDawson

It’s good that folks are understanding this and not trying to paint it as some kind of control mechanism as that’s not our purpose.

Yea, but…

@DougDawson

we need to keep things under control and avoid mistakes of the past.

Claims that this is not about “control” in some way are false on the face of them. Instead, and in addition to providing strain selection criteria requested above, an equally clear statement as to just what it is you are attempting to control and what you are not would be very helpful.

[hawkman]

basicly what you are saying that before one can offer seed that breeder must have posted a grow journal /results from the seeds offered ?

[bunny]

That is it! Get rid of the mods, freedom for all!

Uh, no, that won’t work. And I see why the seed run needs this to remain practical for ‘the distributors and people handling the seed run’. As said above but may not stand out enough who is on the committee, if you are confused reread the thread. Is this going to be a repeat of the fall co-op thread where the same information is repeated every week or two? Rant aside.

Basically if the seed run is being run by an individual and it falls in the purpose of keeping rare strains going it will most likely be approved. If it does not fall into the rare strain category it may be included if the seeds are already prepackaged and ready to pop into the shipments. Management (the distributors, oops, I gave it away) reserves the right to refuse unsanctioned seed runs if they find the workload is becoming unmanageable again.

Did I miss anything?

[G-paS]

@bunny

Basically if the seed run is being run by an individual and it falls in the purpose of keeping rare strains going it will most likely be approved. If it does not fall into the rare strain category it may be included if the seeds are already prepackaged and ready to pop into the shipments. Management (the distributors, oops, I gave it away) reserves the right to refuse unsanctioned seed runs if they find the workload is becoming unmanageable again.

Thank You! You are 100% correct. The criteria that has been in effect for years will be used. It just got lost due to Sebring being an awesome, sweet caring person. Than it became a monster that over took him.

[DougDawson]

@Vesti

what qualifies this group to make executive decisions as to what genetics are viable and worthy?

We are the Co-op team, the members that put in the work for all of you, this is why we were chosen as the starting point. It has been discussed among us to add other members to this group once it get’s up and running but it needed to start somewhere and those doing all the work were that starting point. The Co-op distribution is a free asset to growers that has always had the same mission statement. To preserve rare and discontinued strains. That mission has been strayed from so we are trying to get it back on track. Simple as that.

@Vesti

This dismisses rather than answers @Foreigner’s question.

No it doesn’t, strains will be taken on a case by case basis as stated. When one is submitted the grower needs to put in what information they have. They are the ones who initially decided the strain was rare of discontinued, they should be posting data on how they determined that. Than the team will take that data and do some research. We will search for the strain availability in the market, information on if it was discontinued or if it is still available for sale. This is why it will be done on a case by case basis because every strain will need to be researched. If for example we find the strain being sold at a seed bank and is currently being produced by the breeder, it clearly would not qualify. Now if for example that strain being sold is from old stock and not being produced that it would qualify. In other words we will be putting in the work to research each submission as they come in to verify it is either rare or discontinued.

@Vesti

Claims that this is not about “control” in some way are false on the face of them. Instead, and in addition to providing strain selection criteria requested above, an equally clear statement as to just what it is you are attempting to control and what you are not would be very helpful.

We are controlling the infrastructure of the Co-op, not the members of the site. As has been said repeatedly, we have no power over what a user decides to run. Only over what is allowed to take advantage of the free service being offered by volunteers to package and distribute a persons work. In the end if a grower wants to access this free service than they have to go through this new process. If they don’t wish to show why they feel a strain is discontinued or rare than not a problem, they can still do their seed run as they see fit. Nobody is telling them what they can or cannot do with regards to what they run. We are however telling them that they need to meet the criteria that has been set out in order to access the resources of the Co-op.

[Vesti]

@DougDawson

When one is submitted the grower needs to put in what information they have. They are the ones who initially decided the strain was rare of discontinued, they should be posting data on how they determined that. Than the team will take that data and do some research. We will search for the strain availability in the market, information on if it was discontinued or if it is still available for sale. This is why it will be done on a case by case basis because every strain will need to be researched. If for example we find the strain being sold at a seed bank and is currently being produced by the breeder, it clearly would not qualify. Now if for example that strain being sold is from old stock and not being produced that it would qualify. In other words we will be putting in the work to research each submission as they come in to verify it is either rare or discontinued.

Now this is the start of an actual answer to the original question, and thank you for it as it gives everyone a sense of the thought process which is necessary as a starting point of a conversation about exactly what things will look like.

I’ll toss a general suggestion into the mix. It might help streamline the process if the team was to tap into existing domains of expertise within our community rather than feeling like you have to chase down breeder and seed bank info from scratch. For instance, if a landrace is entered into the mix, have a couple knowledgeable LR folks provide insight - there are many here that could contextualize genetics off their top of their heads more effectively than you or I could (given our relative newness to the enterprise) in an afternoon of scouring the web. Likewise, autos, modern polyhybrids, Dutch genetics, etc. are all sub specialties well represented already within our membership, and it would up our game for the team to have some channels established to help vet on a deeper level.

As for the matter of “control”, I know the language of autocracy when I hear it. Let’s leave it at that.

Anyway, no doubt the process needs some cleaning up, and I’m sure the team will get things back on track.

[Northern_Loki]

@Vesti

As for the matter of “control”, I know the language of autocracy when I hear it. Let’s leave it at that.

Not sure where the confusion is.

The co-op team is a group of members that have dedicated a significant portion of their time providing towards the good of the community. Specifically helping to distribute from co-ops on a periodic schedule and with a goal of net zero after expenses. The time they dedicate is free. The bandwidth they collectively can provide is also limited. It is not ‘owned’ by the site.

If they, those directly putting in the effort, wish to limit the what, whens, or whereas … their choice. If they were to decide to pack it up tomorrow … also their choice. It would be sad but there would be nothing legit to complain about other than to complain.

[potpotpot]

This seems like a group of volunteers defining the limits of their volunteering.
Thanks for all the work you’re doing. That’s a ton of work to keep everything organized and get it distributed right. Especially as a volunteer.
I’ve not yet been here long enough to take part in a co-op box, but I look forward to being able to be a beneficiary of all your efforts and dedication.

[DougDawson]

@Vesti

It might help streamline the process if the team was to tap into existing domains of expertise within our community rather than feeling like you have to chase down breeder and seed bank info from scratch.

It has been discussed and we are aware that some users want to be part of this process. All things need a starting point and what you are seeing is that starting point.

[Vesti]

No confusion here buddy, at least not on this matter, so unfortunately you’ll have to look elsewhere for it.

I’m certain it is not the case that this team has any of the capriciousness you feel would be justified, and of course you should bear in mind that our growers (who I don’t believe have gotten much mention) need confidence in the stability of the system.

[Vesti]

Yes, a starting point, that’s all I (and I assume others) were looking for.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Northern_Loki]

If you don’t want to utilize the co-op (as a grower), then don’t. This is an actual group that has experience doing such things for years. Period.

[Vesti]

@Northern_Loki

actual group

Well yea, a virtual one wouldn’t be much use…

…and I’m not challenging the group or it’s “actual” existence one bit, just looking for straightforward answers and some sense of the process. Let’s bear in mind also that there are ethical concerns that implicate everyone, not just the team, so everyone needs to be as informed as they wish to be.

Which could not be nearly as strong a wish under any circumstances as my wish for this exchange to end.

Have an excellent evening.

[Northern_Loki]

@Vesti

Have an excellent evening.

You as well.

[zephyr]

I think this is a great idea.

Often people have announced co-op runs without consulting the rules, checking with the distributors, or posting in the seed donation and breeder matchup thread before creating a sign up sheet.

Once a sign up sheet has been created, the co-op has generally felt obligated to distribute the project whether it falls within the rules or not.

This will help solve the problem of an overburdened distribution network, while also keeping the co-op on track and on mission for its original intended purpose:
preserving discontinued lines, landraces, and building block strains with no claim of ownership.

I have complete faith in our volunteer distributors to regulate these votes, and I don’t know why none of us co-op volunteers thought of this before.

[bassman5420]

Well I am going to throw a seed run question out there.

I was given BlockBerry fem seeds and a pack of fem pollen by Sebring to do a preservation run of some sort.

I went to test the pollen for viability in one of my last grows and sadly the pollen was

Question 1: Is this a preservation run that is still wanted/applicable to the group.

Question 2: Since I would have to grow and reverse a plant prior to the run or slightly before the other plants went into flower, what would the @coopactiongroup like to be done? Meaning if the run is still wanted, should I grow and reverse 1 plant to pollenate the other 4 with, grow out a few first to find more of a keeper female to reverse or just grow and reverse them all. Thanks

[Kushking902]

Sebring is in the group so i would imagine it’s still a go

[LegsMahoney]

Just wanna go in record as saying that I support whatever changes to the system are necessary to help maintain the sanity of the good people volunteering their time to make these genetics available to the community. If these people say that these new protocols are necessary and are not infringing on anyones right to reproduce and distribute seeds on their own l, than im all for it. Above all I want to thank the people dedicating their time to doing the preservations and the people dedicating their time to distributing them. I’ve been fortunate enough to acquire literally every genetic that I’ve put out there that I wanted through this site, so I want to share my love for the community as a whole. Love to all of you out there

[DougDawson]

Hey @bassman5420 , give us a bit to get all of the action groups thoughts and we will get back to you. With the group being from multiple countries we need to give them a bit of time to respond but appreciate you posing the question.

[VAhomegrown]

@Vesti

It might help streamline the process if the team was to tap into existing domains of expertise within our community rather than feeling like you have to chase down breeder and seed bank info from scratch.

IMO the person wanting to apply for access to the co-op seed run distribution network should have already done enough preliminary research to present their run as being applicable under the criteria in the first place. I def think a short questionnaire or faq should be presented to people so that they can more closely determine whether or not their run meets the criteria before they present it. Then the coop action team validates the info and approves or denies depending on the info/situation. Placing the burden of proof on the applicant is the best way to go about it. Takes less time for the CAG to validate than to search from scratch. But as long as the strain isnt available from the breeder or a legit distributer of their seeds anymore, it should be good to go.