Yes basically, the math is similar, without some of the more advanced calculations that the PHD wizard is doing on HB. I prefer visual representations of math concepts. Numbers are numb!
Sure! I really like the MB idea and would totally run it if I we’re shopping for new ferts.
I swap in formulas over the course of the grow. These are for each 1 gallon of water used. I change this up occasionally so this is the as-of-now schedule.
P.S. Don’t mind that Megacrop entry at the end, it’s just a variable I play around and change when other people ask about it. I can swap in anything using this sheet below, accommodating 11 input variables (bag mixes) as part ratios of a total blend, targeting a single total N amount, which then produces the printouts above. XXX (Finish) for example:
Brother you are dropping some serious knowledge here, thank you so much for taking the time and sharing this data. I am still trying to get comfortable with dry salt nutes so you have been super helpful. Last couple of questions for now lol.
Now that you shared your flower formula can I get your veg as well? Hopefully alittle easier to share then your multi week flower lol.
I saw someone in another thread mention a brand of dry nutes called JR Croptech. It looks like they also have a 0 nitrogen flower formula that caught my eye. Here is a link if you don’t mind adding them into your comparisons.
For veg I simply use Jack’s 3-2-1 as a literal 3 grams Hydro, 2 grams CalNit, and 1 gram Epsom per gallon, which results in a 120N solution or 80% strength solution compared to Jack’s recipe which calls for a touch more of each per gallon, resulting in a standard 150N solution. I do try to limit size of my indoor crops and so I’m not adding CO2, nor any additional heat, and can run a lower yet healthy N target.
The label on the bag in the stock photo on Jacks website is from a different product so the anaylsis is bogus. Here is the label from the actual bag that I just got.
How cool, this will come in handy, I’ve been wanting to make a simpler late flower blend. Here’s my current which is formulated for peat based medium, weeks 6-7ish for me based on my system. It’s probably overly complicated but I still have fun mixing and weighing stuff.
I up-pot for 1 gallon nursery containers to 5 gallon air pots around the same time I flip to 12/12. I’ll end up feeding that Week 1-2 recipe twice at most, and it’s what I use to soak the medium for the first time at time of transplant. A lot more Si and Ca are provided by the medium (Promix HP + Verm, Wollastonite, Gyspum). Citrus blend is in there for the ammoniacal N and pH control within a peat based medium over time.
@LD50 Awesome post as always man! Have you played around with the 0-12-26 values in your recipes to see if you are able to reduce the amount of inputs?
Wow. Just found this thread. Information Overload. I love it!
I’m on my second grow right now. Just flipped to flower. Been using Athena Blended formula. Any chance you can look at that system?
I’ve spoken with Athena. Blended and Pro lines made at different times with different teams so, no consistency between the two.
As luck would have it, 0-12-26 doesn’t actually reduce the quantity of my inputs regardless of phase. It will generally swap in for 5-12-26 and require some tweaking of other inputs to emulate the same elemental outputs.
FWIW, if you swap in 0-12-26 and still use the 3-2-1 program, you’re basically just reducing N from 150 to 100 while keeping the micros the ~same. I assume that hinging around the micro curve is appropriate here, and aligns with Jack’s feed recommendations too. This leads us to examine the differences in macros and whether that is a desirable thing:
I could build a program around either and don’t think it’s all that newsworthy now that I’ve considered it within the context of a larger multi-input program.
Check the first post showing Athena compared to others. It just quickly shows how much K you’re getting from Athena, and that Ca and P are being generously included. I’ve only examined their Pro line but take a look and ask any specific follow-ups you have.
Great information throughout, really appreciate it @LD50.
I bought the 25lb bag of Jacks 0-12-26. For my small grow that’s a lot of salt. Suggestions for a veg ratio using that? I’m finishing up a bag of 5-12-26 and if I can avoid buying more that’d be great. Thanks in advance.
Im not sure what specifics there are, just the guys at Athena said the Blended and Pro formulas are wildly different and cant be intermixed for ratios. Two different development teams at different times.Pro line has Grow, Bloom and Core vs Blended with CaMg, Grow A/B, Bloom A/B, and PK. I guess thats the specifics as far as I know.
Most of this ratio stuff is greek to me. Just learning it. Started growing in April 23. Unfortunately, Athena Blended is different. Its all planned out in mL per gallon. Im only on my second grow now, but Athena worked great on my first grow which I harvested this past August. A Friend taught me how to grow and thats the system he uses.
Im thinking about switching over to some of the Athena Pro due to cost-effectiveness but would love to see what you come up with to show differences.I noticed some of the Pro line stuff had high levels that many didnt seem to like. Wondered if the Blended line followed suit or not.
Sure! Let’s first define what a veg ratio is. Within the context of salt-based ferts I think Jacks 321 is a good “gold standard” veg formula for inert mediums.
I plan everything I do around the N number. Jack’s suggests that 150N is appropriate through veg. The lowest I go is 120N which is actually, simply, Jacks 321 at literal 3g Hydro, 2g CalNit, 1g Epsom. This is an 80% strength (120N) blend that I personally use in veg to grow out smaller plants. The 100% strength (150N) formula for 3-2-1 is ~3.79g Hydro, 2.52 grams CalNit, and 1g epsom.
Jack’s provides a nutrient schedule for 0-12-26 that you might find interesting… because it still implicates the 5-12-26 for veg (and employs 0-12-26 only for late flower):
So that all said, you want a 0-12-26 for veg. You want micros to be similar to that of the 3-2-1 program with the lowest concentration of micros being equivalant to an 80% strength mix of original 3-2-1 blend (120N).
Post pics of the container labels showing NPK and all the other macros/micros. Then tell me how much of each you use, what order you mix them, etc. I’ll analyze what you’re using against other lines and can even create a “clone” blend that is eerily similar to Athena Blended, but is comprised of commonly available salt products that you have available to you.
Ok Heres everything.
Interestingly enough, Balance has no ingredients listed. Hmmm… I’ll have to check the label at home on the actual bottle. I got these from the Athena website from their SDS and Labels section.
EDIT
I just called Athena to discuss a couple of things. Advised them they are missing online Balance ingredients. They did advise it is a Potassium Silicate. Potassium - Good, Silica - Good!
I’ll look at my label when I’m home from work and upload.
Full-stregth has been working out pretty well so far. Not noticing any bad mojo or anything else, so I’ll go with those numbers. Im running a coco-loco with Octopot dual root system (hydro/soil hybrid). This is only my second grow. I grew 5 plants each in 5-gallon pots on my first grow a few months ago. Honestly, I was all over the place with feeding.That was pure soil grow - top water.
Now Im bottom watering with Octopots and Im very consistent with feedings and nutes. Just had to make sure the ratios were going to work. I’d been told to cut nutes in half due to the increased uptake with the hydro roots, but she seems to love all the nutes I can give her. Last feeding two days ago was at 2.3 EC.
Mixing order is as listed in photos
For Vegetation:
Balance 4mL
Grow A 11mL
Grow B 11mL
CaMg 5mL
Cleanse 4mL
Stack 7mL during Veg and into Flower through week 3
For Flower
Balance 4mL
Bloom A 12mL then tapers starting week 5 to 10, 9, 5, 4, 4 @ week 9
Bloom B 12mL
PK Starting week 3 ramps up - 4mL,6,9,10,12,10,10 @ week 9
CaMg 5mL
Cleanse 4mL
Stack 7mL during Veg and into Flower through week 3.
All measurments are Per Gallon. I usually mix in 5 gallon batches.
Thanks for grabbing this data from Athena! Ok so we don’t need to analyze Balance (pH buffer), Cleanse (chlorine), or Stack (kelp foliar) since those don’t directly contribute to the base nutrient targets we’re aiming at and are more “accessory” inputs.
Here’s an example of a custom salt blend using Jack’s products and some off the shelf MKP (Haifa) and Sufate of Potash (Allganic K) to “mimic” Athena’s Blended line @ Week 6 of flower. I’d like to get closer with a K source that doesn’t add Sulfur, but this is well reasonable:
Mimicking the other weeks/blends is as easy as pulling and pushing on the Jack’s input levers until the curves match well enough.
For more context, here’s my Wk6 blend vs. Athena’s. Note the generous amount of Phosphorus and Potassium in Athena’s blends along with the relatively weak Iron provided. I don’t know what to make of this other than I’m now tempted to toss more cowbell into my next run!
I just got home and able to get a picture of the balance container label. Not sure if it makes a difference at all, but they said it is the only product that they use in their schedule that includes silica, so I’d say probably is fairly important for strong structure and cell walls. I usually run balance at 4 ml per gallon and typically do a 5 gallon batch.
I haven’t even had a chance to read your report yet and honestly probably won’t until tomorrow some time. If you’ve already somehow addressed the balance issue, great! If not, let me know if anything changes.
