@Mahakala, for many reasons, I have not had any individuals from my lines tested for cannabinoid content. How a particular individual affects me personally, is far more valuable to me than any lab result at this point in time. Cannabis is a very old plant, but cannabis science is still a very young science. Until science can confidently and satisfactorily explain why a 20% individual might score much higher than a 30% individual regarding perceived potency across a broad range of test subjects, the data is of very limited value to me.
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I figure most of it is just for marketing. Folks love higher numbers, why take a 20% strain when you can have a 25%. Nothing about terpene profiles or how they work in conjunction with THC. Just folks thinking the higher the number the more potent it must be. Any experienced smoker knows that is a BS way to judge a strain.
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Wow, excellent!
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This is why we are so grateful to great breeders like you for evaluating these lines and finding the individual plants most worth preserving. I can only imagine all the work that has gone into selecting these strains and the years it took to get there. And since there is so much art involved in that process, I am skeptical if science alone can ever surpass it.
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I’ve never been as high as I got during the late 70’s early 80’s. I think people have messed up weed by shooting for just high THC. Some of the ugliest looking buds I ever smoked back then would blow me away with one toke. 
And I liked those old flavors too
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I certainly feel that the brain of the smoker is still the best calculator of these things. The big elephant in the room is that cannabis still hides many secrets, many unknowns. And while the human brain automatically calculates these things, current cannabis science seemingly loathes to admit their existence. It’s not like corn or other crop where research can be comparatively straight forward. We are talking about how this plant makes you feel, when smoked - that is some pretty high maths.
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it is a lot of work! and I have never seen Tom would cash on it on large scale, looks like pure passion from him, and that’s why it is sooo good probably too.
real scientist like Galieo Galilei have good invention and are just as creative as artists.
and when you think about electrified music, where the sound is vibrated to the highest level, it is kind of science/art synergy.
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And you know it when you feel it, even if you can’t accurately describe in it.
that is a part of the magic
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Well stated by a very wise man!
Good to see you round @TomHill
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high maths. I get it, I didn’t want to say that you select according to thc content…
I also try to make these hybrids according to the effect too, but it is quite clear from my previous posts, I think.
the effect is first, but also I like tasty weed.cherry pheno of juicy was super tasty, and got me soo high! it is less cerebral, cause it has such bottom, but not stony, pretty racy and high activity of mind, mind storm and so uplifting that it feels almost unpleasant, like nooo I cant get higher, but yeah she owns and gets me high like she wants, not like I want…
this juicy, bubblegumy pheno, is more cerebral, as it is longer flowering than cherry pheno… at least I think it is like that.Skunkman stated that you can make haze x afghan hybrid and in second generation you can find short flowering plant with cerebral effect of haze… I have never seen it though.
do you think there is some connection between cerebral quality of effect and longevity of flowering?
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For almost 30 years now, I been trying to do what Skunkman is talking about haha. Get into the F2 and take early flowering from P1 and outstanding cerebral effect from P2. In theory it is possible but I have never found as much success as I was hoping. That’s why I was saying before I am ready to basically surrender and admit failure.
I have never found a fast flowering (12 week) phenotype in my haze line that was also extremely cerebral, but I am still not comfortable saying that there must be a positive correlation between longer flowering and highest quality. I still believe those traits are inherited separately.
I posted recently the type of situation Skunkman is talking about. Here is an F2 of Deep Chunk x Haze.
Very potent and cerebral but as you say it is definitely a compromise. Something is missing, the high fades away in 3 hours, and it is a dirtier muddier high than straight haze. Much like blue dream or the dizzying lower quality Mexican of my youth. When I go outside, I can not hear the insects crawling around like I can on the straight haze.
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well I said, it is not exactly like haze, but some phenos can be pretty close… it depends on parents imo. what parents do you use with your haze Tom? if I can ask…
I can only judge your deep chunk x haze F2 and indeed the effect was shortened. and one green metallic pheno was close in initial effect, but didn’t keep it for longer time and much less complex than your haze. I excluded afghans from my haze projects… I use parents with psychoactivity, and some contain a lot of thai… both mother of juicy and mother of mindblower, are commercial plants, but they were bred towards intense thai high, I have to give some respect to those who bred pakithai or juicy fruit thai hybrids, no way they would have stony or space out like effect. I would not use it, as it is what skunkhaze is in fact, and there is plenty of cuts around me, so why to mess with making it again right? I just try to use thai hybrid with shorter flowering time. thats all what I do, and I prefer F1 as they provide more uniformity, and some of them provide brown thai phenos, as I told you previously. but still reluctant to say, it is same level as 17 weeker of your haze. but quite a close, it is different, hard to compare pheno of F1 and pheno of inbred line, those are two different forms of plant to me. I try to explain it like this: we can see certain differences among different phenotypical expressions of line, which were inbred for some generations, but differences among phenos of F1 are of different character. dont know how to explain it properly. simply F1 is different category for me, so it gives different weed imo.
brown pheno of grandfunk gave me 8 hours super strong high, with hangover… no joke. it needed 100 days or so… but effect was bit boring, as it was instant and didn’t change much. kind of devastating, so not much of fun… it was not something I would smoke everyday. so some interesting phenos, different to your haze, but with strong thai character are there.
thanks for confirming, it is very hard to find it in F2… it is great to read you, it helps me to sort out things in my head about this subject…
I have to say I didnt find many thai hybrids suitable for haze, which would shorten flowering time in the same time, I am glad I got this hawaiian pakithai cut, very hoarded cut. buds like diesel, but with intense thai high, absolutely unmistakable… it smells very unique, fruity blood, red hibiscus, coffee, chemicals, chocolate… very hard to describe. when thai genes of my dark green haze male combines with thai from hawaiian PakiThai, in some phenos, it gets jungle tripweed wild.
sour green mango phenos I got in haze x black vietnamese or in chocolate thai hybrid x haze, are ancient south asian phenos imo. super strong and very trippy…
f13 x toms haze elanius made, was great tasting weed, and very euphoric, almost like mdma… but it was not trippy, and high was shortened to 2 hours… not all hybrids are done properly. just say it as a fact I observed with growing toms haze hybrids from others, and mine… juicy is very long lasting compared to f13haze… or they are done properly in eyes of somebody, not in my eyes though 
I am testing my df13haze now. choosing df13 instead of f13, I wanted to avoid mutated stuff. f13 is very mutated… but also I risk diese x haze phenos, which are of same character like skunkhaze. I realize it. but haze phenos of it seems to be fantastic in all aspects… cant wait to smoke it…
some crosses it seems to me that shorter flowering phenos are more tasty, and haze phenos are hazey, but its effect is not so complex. with haze phenos of df13 it seems to be different. these first generations hybrids will not stop to surprise me, it seems. I chose df13 as creator stated that he used rare thai pheno of f13… he said it was twin of gentlemanfarmers pheno of F13 so called 007, which looked like this:
dj short doesnt like heart beating racy weed, so as we all know most of his plants are about calming euphoric mild effect, but there are racy phenos of F13 and josh blue found trippy one recently, hope I will get s1 of that trippy cut… F13 is cross of flo and blueberry, flo or blueberry are not trippy or racy, so how the hell F13 can be trippy or racy??? because there is some thai in it, which peaks out here and there, even more in hybrids with thai haze.
I didn’t await such longevity of effect at juicy… but it really is very very long lasting. praxis is always different than theory.
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@MAHAKALA I have tried also with pinetar kush / haze F2 and same type results for me, it’s not good enough. Both the PTK and DC can be very cerebral for broadleafs but they are not anything like what you are exploring. It’s pretty obvious to me that you are having more success with your strategy than I had with mine. That is why I signed up to come in and say wow nice choices you are exploring. It’s exciting for me to see.
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thanks Tom, this all fun I have with it, would not be possible without you and your precious selection… I think I just see your fingerprint on it… which is sign of top breeder work. many many thanks. and best wishes. I appreciate your honesty.
you are welcomed in to this fun, in case you are interested in, of course.
I plan to dig into hmong thai and hmong thai hybrids too. to look for the magic in new caledonia(thai mex mix) and in puna sativa with bbq flavors. but these will be long flowering hahaha.
I dont think I really understand inbreeding as such… especially at some wild and unstable or flexible? genetically plastic? plant like cannabis is… with some wine varieties it is the same, it is so unstable, that we use grafts… not stable like corn or tomatoes… now original haze was polyhybrid, right? so inbreeding transforms it in something different, or am I wrong? I am eager to know your opinion on this matter Tom, simply there is such opinion that haze suffers from inbreeding. ???
one guy here just finished 30 years of breeding program with some wine variety, they bred for resistance against drought and plagues, and for the sweetest taste. but in the end the result is few grafts available. maybe it is understandable at plants like wine or apple trees, but I would like to have more uniform inbred cannabis seeds, closer to tomatoes like style, I see that inbred cannabis lines can be pretty uniform in outer traits, but it is hard to find that exceptional individual there, and mostly it is not top vigor, like I noticed at bshw which is very very inbred line, super stable and predictable. F1s, on the other hand, are surprisingly stable like variation is reduced or driven in limited number, with better occur of exceptional individuals. dont know why it is like that… F2s are wildly unstable.
RESPECT
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To be honest brother I think you are correct. Go to the perfect F1 and take full advantage of Heterosis. This will have you highest scores on the chart. I just like to stand back and enjoy the show .
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Amazing what you can pull off with stuff from job lot, right!?
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I am still testing these acid beauties( lime green pheno of toms haze x black vientamese), and this vietnamese pheno is very cerebral, it has some THH features, without any curing, and with curing it transforms itself, it is quite strong, as I feel it from half of joint, it is creeper effect of course, and pressure in head like your head is balloon full of hot air… it is very long lasting too. I was at known places, but it felt like I am at foreign place. but it is not so complex like THH, this particular pheno barely dried. on the other hand it is very strong head high, some micro waves in head… and trippy. without any curing. it is not so complex though. that complexity makes that special quality. and also on the other hand, all phenos were potent… not average in potency.
it is very mango tasting. mangoes. it smells sour, but it tastes sweet. I smoked it only once…
so to find sativa line which would keep complexity of THH in the outcross, is not easy task at all, it seems to me. I knew it haha. I saw guys making these fast done crosses, like zamal x thh etc… I think it is not enough to make it properly, just to select some outstanding long flowering sativa.
some say malawi gold, congo or vietnamese, are just good as haze, but to me haze is more complex than any sativa I tried. so many dimensions, psychoplasticity of effec or something, I have troubles to explain it, malawi gold is great smoke and psychoactive, but like three dimensional, while THH is multi dimensional…
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I like clear effect, but not super crispy clear, haze should be a little bit… well… hazy… those really flowering individuals of acid beauty, vietnamese ones, they need really long time, like bottom branches need 22weeks and tops much more… very clear head high.
it smells mango, sour mango like I said. thats how Vietnamese people call weed from Dalat: Xoai Dalat. Xoai means mango…
it grows like this there:
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Beautiful thread amigo. For clarity, F13 is a pheno from the Flo line only. No jf thai, but jf phenos are available thru the purple thai side of flo.
Just getting ready to sample some of the f13 I ran outdoors.
I need some of those rootbeer phenos from the tom hill haze lines.
I need to check to see if I got some of those Juicy woos in the fridge. Did you send me some with the trop boogie?
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