Not JUST another pollen chuck - Phenohunting Autos with Terpsneeze

[TerpSneeze]

Hey Team,

As some of you may already know I decided to start my first actual breeding project this winter based on something I have no practical knowledge of; breeding Autos. I have certainly chucked pollen over the many years I have been around cannabis however I have never laid out a logical plan or intentionally tried to produce and refine crosses, merely play. I also have no experience with Autos to date so this should be interesting for sure.

The motivation behind all of this is to find and refine a strain for my own purposes; fast but low growing, low energy low resource reliance and most importantly high-quality medicine to show for the work. I plan on crossing and stabilizing one or more of my crosses and produce enough seed to make a small army of these monsters. This is not a profit grabbing scheme, I simply want to have my own seed to grow and share with the community when I have something that is worthy, new and unique. I expect that the project will take a minimum of a year of work and resources to achieve my goal of a stable expression of the chosen genetics.

Since I have no experience I thought I would ask the great minds of OG about logical outlooks for this project. Currently my outlook is as follows.

-Use REG Auto seeds I have on hand to hopefully get male pollen and see some expressions of the base genetics I have selected

-Use this pollen and selective pollination to produce the initial crosses from all REG Auto seed resulting in 100% Auto offspring

-Use the REG Auto seeds I produce as a result of the crosses to line breed each cross again through selective pollination and potentially backcrossing for several generations of each cross

-Use the stabilized crosses and selected phenos to produce new crosses

My gene pool is still growing and getting refined, I will see what I can grab over the next month or so to beef it up.

Currently, I have in hand:

-AUTOSEEDS - Sucker Punch - FEM
-SWEET SEEDS - Black Cream - FEM
-SHORT STUFF SEEDS - SnowRyder - REG
-SHORT STUFF SEEDS - Short Stuff #1 - REG
-BARNEY’S FARM - Sin Tra Bajo - FEM
-OG’s MrSparkle - Dark Spark Mix, as well as 3 other crosses ( some are not 100% Auto and will need pheno hunting)
-OG’s Jbow - Spotted Lime -REG will also make this list if and when they make it up this way.

I had wanted to run Mephisto in the mix as well but I have had no luck securing any of their gens to date. I have ordered 2 small tents that will be setup and upgraded as isolation units for males with pollen tight systems to keep my photo gals safe and insure clean and isolated pollination.

Would love to hear your thoughts on my outlook and look forward to providing back to the community when all the dust has settled.

Happy Growing Friends!

[TerpSneeze]

Things are moving along in the build phase of this project. I took 2 propagation tents, setup them up with “96w” of full spectrum LEDs from Barrina - I use their $10 white LED shoplights in my vertical farm. The light is a touch more purple than anything we currently run but ah well.

Took the time to stress test my lab as I am very much pushing the limits of my 100 year old house with a 60 amp breaker box. Ran the lights along with every other powered peice of equipment on the circuit - Rosin press, Mars TS3000, My bridgelux array 2 AC Infinity T4s, 1 AC Infinity T8, 2 AC Infinity 4" axial muffins, a 400~w vertical farm, seed fridge, lights, flowpumps … to see if I couldn’t flip my breaker. I didn’t however I since turned up my array so I will have to run further tests.

All in all I very happy with these little Chinese made tents, have all the features of the bigger names and actually better features than our Mammoth Classic 120 that is our designated veg area for our photo periods that I am also very happy with. I started the pollen-proofing by implementing a Hydro-static pollen filter for your furnace, cut to size and sealed in with silver tape. The tents will be sealed over any thin spots and seams from the inside with silver tape as well to help with the negative pressure hvac that they will be connected to to ensure all the air floating around in these tents is mitigated pollen wise.

The hvac will also need to be pollen tight so I have been working way on that system’s designs and I am really excited to share that with all of you but that will have to wait for the time being.

In the meantime if you know of some REG Dwarf Autoflowering genitcs that I should be considering specifically those that are medicinal and indica leaning please let me know!!

I hope all of you projects and garfdens are coming together, thanks for stopping in!

[Bob13]

How short is short?

Iv been playing with breeding autos this year, I’d like to suggest seed stockers random mix, it’s like 13 euros for 20 seeds so it’s among the cheapest out there. You don’t get to know the strains but there are some real awesome genetics.
I mainly concentrated on blueberry and dark sparks I bred them together and this last round I had a couple hermie, I’m not sure where it’s from genetics wise but probably stress induced.

The height aspect can be controlled a lot with the pot size but I’m sure you know that, I might be interested in a trade further down the line of you produce a short single cola type strain with little to no branching if you are interested. I may also be able to send you a few of my seeds if the blueberry or blueberry x dark spark interests you.

Looks like a really nice setup to get stuck into breeding. Are you going to be auto watering or hand watering? If I may suggest id start the autos in their final pots to avoid transplant shock.

[beacher]

Seems like you’ve got a solid plan of action there. The only thing I don’t get about breeding autos is how people select for traits.

Like say I have auto seeds that make a nice tasting pheno, how can I try and isolate that trait if I can’t recognize it until the plant is done? Would it be best to just pollinate everything and then only keep the seeds from the plants that show the traits you want? Otherwise you’d have to pollinate so early into flowering that it won’t be obvious what yield, potency etc will be like…

[Bob13]

Yes id do that, for breeding a good note taking can help you recognise phenos much earlier, say if you numbered each plant, took notes every week then selected for 1-3 males to open pollinate everything else. De seed and store the seeds with the notes for each plant seperatly and divide the bud up aswell but dont forget a seeded plant will be pretty different in flavour n high, selective pollination is a pain but if you go through it and label each branch pollinated by a different male you can generally get a top cola or good portion of the plant unseeded for tasting.

[TerpSneeze]

@Bob13

How short is short?

I am looking at 60 cm and below for my dwarfs ideally. Thanks for the tips! Yes I plan on running them in 1 gal fabric pots the whole cycle, and I am a stickler for notes. And yes some sort of auto water will be in the mix, I haven’t quite sorted that yet but I have several forms of systems around the lab. And thanks for the offer of seeds, I will let you know how we go.

@beacher

how can I try and isolate that trait if I can’t recognize it until the plant is done?

Thats an excellent point sir, there are several ways to do it and one you already spoke to - breed everything see what comes, you can reverse a plant a few weeks into flower or you grow out each of you regular gens to see and document traits, isolate your males, collect pollen and then run the same gens again dust the interesting ones with pollen. Like you said its a bit of a crap shoot and that why the usual pollen chuck doesn’t work with autos you will still need to isolate the desired pheno and stabilize it’s traits over multiple generations of selective line breeding.

[Bob13]

Most autos will stay under that 60cm height in my experience

[TerpSneeze]

A lot of breeders are offering XL autos which resemble photoperiod sized plants, this was my introduction to full Autos… I have some samples from Canuk or CropKing can’t remember but they are not short by nature and thus have sat in the seed fridge. Reading through numerous breeders copy on their sites only select strains seem to be always short but even more so when stunting them with small rooting area and low PPFD as most Autos seem to respond well too.

I guess one trait I will also be seeking out is the fast allel. I have had this fantasy of running some 60 day wonder into the mix from DNA Seeds but have yet to actually get on that as they won’t ship to Canada directly… You will notice that they classify this as a Tall cultivar.

https://dnagenetics.com/seeds/60-day-wonder.html

Comparably to the Snowryder and Short Stuff #1 (which will likely be the pollen side of any cross and back cross efforts) is classified as a Dwarf topping out at 25-38 cms and SnowRyder a bit bigger at 30-50 cms

ShortStuff no.1 - Shortstuff Seeds

Snowryder - Shortstuff Seeds

[Bob13]

I see what you mean mate, not trying to knock the seeds but that depends entirely when you want to harvest, i could harvest some of mine at day 60 and it would get me high, granted it will be a much headier high and im going for 20% + amber this time so im leaving it a week or two atleast.

[TerpSneeze]

Experience trumps the dribble they put on the packaging to sell sell sell, Thanks for the insight Bob.

My goal with the fast allel is to narrow the window of the cultivar finishing quickly as well but not to sacrifice on yield or quality of said yield as you pointed out.

That being said I currently veg 50-100% longer (often near a month) for my photoperiods for the same reasons and I am never upset at that decision. I am hoping that having specific goals to shoot for will help me gauge whether or not I was successful in this project. If by chance some of my goals come with the territory/genetics inherently, I will take the additional energy and resources to concentrate on those that aren’t like stability, high extractable resin concentrations, and terp profile.

I appreciate your insight Bob, I also look forward to any and all real-world knowledge folks have with Autos as this project is just as much about the growth of accessible knowledge on the topic as it is growing killer autos.

[Bob13]

i find concentrating on structure, height and colour are the three main key features im aiming at now. Im going to have to do a load of photos vs autos cause everyones saying i can get better yeilds in the same 75 ish days with photos, it is usually 20 days ish from seed before autos start pushing pistils so i gues the veg time isnt that different.

I have two threads here on og where i have experimented a bit with stuff, i hopefully documented my exploits so others can learn a bit but maybe check em out sometime along with mr sparkles and reikos stuff if you havent yet, theres a butt load of info on autos in their threads and much more detailed than mine.

[TerpSneeze]

Those are great markers to be working with no doubt. I will dig through your thread(s) to see what I can learn from them as well. And yes @Mr.Sparkle, @ReikoX and many other OG members blew me away with thier yields in tight spaces and are the impetus in a lot of ways for these projects and some of their work is already in the gene pool for this project. Before coming to OG I was not a fan of Autos, they did not interest me or fit my outlook. Since getting licensed and working with limited space/resources I need a way to keep my plant count up and harvests regular. After seeing what can be done with these lil beauties I can only imagine where they will go with another 10-15 years of breding and development.

[Mr.Sparkle]

The comment on people producing XL autos more now if you look one thing to note with them is they are typically 10-11+ week strains which tends better for outdoor applications whether early season harvests or periodic, indoors though at those time frames photos make more sense to me unless you have consistent veg space going unused.

So counter to some of your goals some sacrifices will need to be made or at least adjusted, as you can’t get around certain factors like short time span flowering plants will produce less regardless as they can only convert so much energy or do so much growing in a given time span. As for height some strains do keep as short as you want but growing conditions mainly factor that first whether small pot volumes, or them going through some stressors though through my basic experience some strains such as lowryder leaning or close crosses to them when their roots hit bottom “only days” or obstructions they just slow up and start thinking about flowering which limits their heights, some do it regardless.

So is a short height, sub 60 day plant that has good end results possible oh forsure and there already out there high yields will just have to come from more plants is all…

Also can’t remember all that i gave you, but if looking for some shorter stature shorter flowering plants try a couple of the Cookie Devil’s H2’s, they have typically been sub 60day short plants for me or at least there ancestors have been.

[TerpSneeze]

Many thanks brother for your ongoing generosity! I 100% agree, sacrifices will also be prevalent

XL Autos: Nail on the head there, been avoiding them like the plague myself, don’t have time or space for that.

Sacrifices: Yes I also 100% agree here. Finding not only good gens that match the system, my environment and desires will also help steer this project hopefully for the better…

I guess what I meant to say in terms of yields is that the goal would be for the yields to be on the beefer side of what they are, I see some breeders advertising cultivars that otherwise interest me but every documentation of the strain I can find it appears to only produce popcorn nuggets compared to the solid Donkey D Style plants that seem to be more consistent with yield-oriented cultivars.

As for what you sent; I will have to check to know for sure beyond Dark Spark Mix. I want to say Cookie Devil X and a Rose X and something else lol. I will check when I get home.

[Mr.Sparkle]

probably got a cookie devil, poisoned rose x cookie devil mix pack, either way some will pop up, but saying that if selecting the short ones, they probably wont be yielders just what it is, but you never know till they are grown.

[TerpSneeze]

Thank you for the clarification on yields. Although my response did not clearly show it, I totally agree with you there too, as well as what you said aligns with what I have seen so far as well.

[TerpSneeze]

Well I have some time so I thought I would update the thread a bit. Since we last spoke

I ordered some more REG Auto beans from Seedsman more specifically Flash Seeds- Cobra REGs and Leamon AK Fem also from Flash Seeds. I had a guardian angel respond to my call for Mephisto and have some Double Grape on the way. I was able to grab some Blimburn - Tangie Auto FEMs while at the head shop to add to some others making their way from the same guardian angel. I still have some Spotted Lime Regs on their way as well from another OG patron saint Jbow so things are coming together on the genetics side. Still on the hunt for interesting, indica leaning, short-ish regular autoflowering seed so who knows what will pop up.

On the build side of things, progress is slow. I have been waiting on some Botanicare ID flood trays that fit these tiny tents and was able to secure one in Canada but apparently it was the last one and as far as all the Canadian distros were concerned they are discontinued. So I started looking in the states and was able to find a few outfits willing to ship to great white north (LOL) and so far just waiting to hear if it ships as the first one (the only one in stock) was damaged before it left the warehouse - looked like a forklift drove over my packaged order by the sounds of things.

I ran some stress tests with the current build plan and temps are going to be around 30C sealed and will need extraction as expected. I briefly spoke to a pollen proof extraction system that I have in mind that incorporates a water trap to capture and inert pollen that gets airborne and gently extracted. More research and testing required there.

Looking forward to getting this going ASAP, my one flood tray should be here in the next 4-5 days and I should also be slowing down at work next month so expect to see some beans being popped likely the first week of December.

Thanks for stopping!

[TerpSneeze]

My first of 2 trays and some mini scrogs showed up today. I was able to take a few minutes away from my daily busyness to modify it so that it will fit the tent. Although this is a 24x24" ID tray, the corners wouldn’t clear the tent posts and fit the space square as shipped. So I drilled holes and removed a touch of material in each of the corners to have it conform to the interior space better, I will run a through-hull through the front of the tray to take a 6mm feed line for the single Aqua-Valve (AutoPot component) that will feed each tent. This will be my micro version of my Auto9 XL we run for Photoperiod stuff- gravity fed, capillary/bottom watering. I will put the final touches on this aspect of the build and hopefully run some more test for humidity once the first tent is plumbed, water flowing and loaded fabric pots are in place.

Thanks for stopping in!

[LilJonB]

I’m going to ride along. I’ve been interested in breeding and think this might be an awesome learning experience. Thanks for taking the time.

[TerpSneeze]

Sounds good @LilJonB, Welcome Welcome… A lot of my cannabis breeding knowledge is from Greg Green’s books and the many kind souls sharing their experiences here on OG. As I said I have definitely chucked pollen but this will be the first legit breeding project I have ever taken on.

I recently bought another copy of the Cannabis Breeder’s Bible for an e-reader so that I could freshen up. I will do my best to explain why and what’s the reasoning behind what I am doing for those who are interested. Thanks for riding along!

The Cannabis Breeder's Bible: The Definitive Guide to Marijuana Genetics, Cannabis Botany and Creating Strains for the Seed Market