Karma really should update headbanger to show it is V2
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Only about the business structure, Karma is a big team and maybe the only one hybrid model like this that lasted here. It’s absolutely not a one man army but a big crew that can be called a collective of small breeders in considering the genesis of the group(s). I’m very respectful and admirative by the way about this, factual results and success are here and the most impressive, are lasting. It’s more than rare in this game, it’s a singularity.
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That’s brilliant 
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I’m pretty old myself lol so i feel comfortable to say this. I think a lot of the ‘it’s not as good as it used to be’ argument is nostalgia and people simply getting older, feeling older with less energy and enthusiasm. Old people think that everything was better way back then ! - it’s pure human nature to to complain that stuff wasn’t what it used to be in pretty much every aspect of life.
Smoking a spliff in middle age or old age simply isn’t going to give you the same buzz/feeling as it did when you were a young person! - same with any other drugs… i used to put on raves, DJ, and go clubbing a lot. Now in my 50’s i could take the best ‘E’ tablet ever, and no way would it make me feel like i did in my teens or 20’s ! some people spend their life chasing those feelings but they are gone because we got older, with all that entails…
so yes i think that is a big part of it.
VG
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It depends a little on the selection process for the later generations, I.e smaller selection vs open pollination etc.
I personally find F2’s a bit of a crapshoot most of the time, though as you say it’s where you often find the treasure, but by f4 you can get something slightly more under control and predictable.
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Hey @slain . How far would you take a plant before you would consider it stable. I mean I hear F6 thrown around alot but are most lines stable by that piont?
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I don’t think I’ve bothered to go further than F7, and even then only a couple of times. F6 is a good compromise between predictable and vigor imho. I also like f1 hybrids, but in reality we don’t have many real IBL’s for making true F1’s, so most cannabis F1’s are a little variable.
I have some sour bubble f8’s that are very uniform, but also noticeably lacking vigor. Also a lot depends on your selection pressure, I.e. include/exclude traits, numbers of plants you collect seed, environment etc.
F generation doesn’t always necessarily mean stability of traits on a per plant basis. It might be that such traits will occur across a population for example but not necessarily in every plant.
In reality there is a lot of trial and error involved because we are dealing with males and females on separate plants, which is why test growing is so important.
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Agreed. It comes down to much more than plant counts. Luck, destiny, using the force( lol). It mainly takes an eye to pick the winning combos.
But that f4+ thing…who wouldn’t want a worked line of that kick ass f1? I want both. We ALL know hybrid vigor is a thing. You just can’t beat an f1, especially one made from f4’s+. But hold those f4’s tightly. Far too few are doing the work to reach further f generations. I think you all know my position on the landraces that make all that fire.
I like f1. I like f4+
I love landraces.
Ideally, take the landrace and preserve it first. Take your winners to f4+. Then sit back and watch the magic happen as pollen chuckers( hats off friends)
make us something cup worthy in f1 form.
Everyone has their place in weed world.
But who can disagree with the original post of this thread? Too many are out to make a quick buck. There’s nothing wrong with that necessarily. We’ve all been punished by inflation. I think we just need a new wave of enthusiasts willing to take up the reins of yesteryears breeders and indigenous farmers. Preserve their legacy, while making a new one.
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I know everyone’s position on ibls. They are f7 or so. Why is there a negative stigma attached to variation? I actually want some. I want to be able to go through a line and find something different than other people found. Variety is the spice of life for me.
How do I know the best pheno from two landraces will mix together best? @Mithridate’s experience echos this. Maybe the second best of each will make the winning combos. Maybe even the worst of each.
Is the predictability of f7 plants in an f1 only desired so that all offspring are uniform for an indoor setup? 
i don’t know this stuff. Is there more vigor in the resulting f1 if true ibl’s are used?
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Which Panama?
Ace is 8-11 weeks
Cannabiogen a couple more weeks
SnowHigh Double Panama goes 15 or so
Cryptic labs goes 14-16
The 71 Panama goes 18-20weeks
The 74 Red Cross Panama, the only landrace Panama out there, goes 18-26 weeks.
The others are hybrids imo. I’ve grown 4 of them.
With that said, I think the hybrid is what many people remember. Hybrids happened early in panama. The seventy one panama is a hybrid. The plants don’t get taller than a couple feet in a small pot. Hardly any stretch. Some mold. My guess is the hybrid was made between the 30’s and 50’s or so. In 20 years I half removed mold from an Afghan line likely from Kandahar. The 71 Panama imo used Kandahar on the landrace Panama, and by 71 still had slight mold issues. Add ten or 20 years to my Afghan breeding effort and I think the plants will be as mold resistant as the 71 Panama
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Sort of @Upstate . The higher the level of unfamiliarity between gene packets of the two parents, the greater the chance for heterosis (hybrid vigor) in the resulting seed. If you mate 2 f4s that are kinda of related, the heterosis level will not be as high.
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That makes sense, thanks
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You need Oaxaca in your life. Pm me😁
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Oh no negative stigmas here, I just like to have a manageable signal to noise ratio so I can plan for it. I likewise appreciate some variation, and don’t get hung up on having photocopy plants.
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Exactly @Upstate I left the question open on purpose. Which Panama? I know I am drawn to the Panama high, soaring and clear from my experience, tasty and a gentle comedown but which is the Panama that soothes me most? I’m not so sure and that is one of the hunts I’m on. I’ve grown Ace and like it, but it is not the final destination. I’ve smoked supposed Panama over the years from various sources. But wanted more insight from those that know the strain intimately.
I’m also growing the Panama x Malawi from @Budderton and will update as it gets established.
What do you suggest?
Thanks always for your thoughts. My ears are always open.
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I’d try cryptic labs Panama.( try Great Lakes Genetics) Mystic Funks Oaxaca is so good, it must be fire. The pics I’ve seen showcase plants similar in appearance to the old 74 jahgreenlabel grew and pictured on icmag. Theres a more Sativa look to them than the others.
The 71 Panama is good. It’s more cruising weed than it is uppity light a fire under your ass smoke, but I like it. Of course , if you could get your hands on the seventy four , I’d recommend that one over all of them. That’s the original one people remember giving energetic highs.
Ace Panama had a blah high for me. Beautiful buds, but made me sleepy.
SnowHigh had amazing smells and great resin. It’s a great worked version of the hybrid Panama mixed with the 74. The hybrid Panama is dominant in the cross.
The 71 is an unworked version of what SnowHigh used imo.
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I like cruising and will heed your advice with the Cryptic also.
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The 71 came from Hippie Cannabis Genetics. I’ve got a pack with your name on it @MikeyMeteor
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You’re very generous. I was not seeking seeds recently as I have been hooked up beyond belief by the kind folks here and have been finishing up my run to give more back than my oatz bodhi cross(which is actually looking pretty solid and will be great smoke.)
Thank you. There is no way I can refuse that offer. You’re the man @Upstate
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Welcome to the seed whore club🤣
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