Thats why I dont buy into or any of that bullshit.
Cake line had herm issues from day one but everybody bought the crap.
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No I just meant the modern market for the new-new hype train stuff, just making a point that all the older lines are still around in some form.
@nube how are inbred lines BS?
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Preaching to choir hereâŚlols busy doing a breeding run with Bingo Pajamas F2âs. Yeah there are still people like him out there, plus an entire forum here. Just the market thatâs into the insta breeders things.
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Of course the classic lines from pre Y2K are harder to come by in the true form, with breeders stocks being destroyed, then the âremakingâ of those lines by the breeders under the same name just confuses things. Like trying to recreate a German Shepard starting with mutts
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Yep, the grass is always greener and growth is infinitely possible, right? Ainât that the capitalist way of greed? 
I think weâre on the same page here, but maybe not. Hereâs my general beef with IBLs @vernal 
Iâve never thought IBLs in the canna world bear any resemblance to the real IBLs in Big Ag. Like the Olathe sweet corn and every other vegetable you buy at the store. Theyâre exactly the same when grown out everywhere in the world, regardless of the terroir. Thatâs what an IBL is. If you want generic cookie cutter exact replicas where every seed is exactly the same, I donât think youâd want weed IBLs that have been made without a lot of science, huge numbers, and the right building blocks.
Why? For me, itâs because most people claiming âF17 IBL Bx29â garbage have no proof. When you ask them, they act like you cursed Jesus in the Vatican. Letâs get real - do you trust most stoners to even fucking document 1 generation or finish a single grow log, much less these lofty claims of â17 generations spanning 2 or 3 decadesâ where they took no notes or pics or shared samples with anybody who would be able to corroborate their stories? Fuck no.
Just like most weed backstories, itâs my opinion that most claims of double digit generational IBLs are myths and bullshit. Iâm sure some arenât, but most are. Pics or it didnât happen. Put up or shut up. Seriously. I have some pics of my shit from red state grows the late 1990s and early 2000s, and Iâm a nobody with no reason to keep them around. Why wouldnât a person with a profit motive and big claims today have proof from back then? They sure have a lot more incentive than I do.
I know of no other industry (besides politics) where outright lies are touted as fact and spread as accurate and reliable as much as the weed world. Letâs all work to fix this by not promoting those types of hucksters and narcissists whose only objective is to manipulate us for their gain.
And the whole point of me saying that is to conclude that good weed is good weed, no matter how it was bred. F1 or S1 or bagseed. If itâs good, Iâll smoke it. 
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I see what youâre saying. I mean, growers really donât want to be growing IBLs. If you have grown something thatâs actually been inbred for 10 generations, then you know it kinda sucks to grow. Mostly because it doesnât have the same vigor and pep that an F1 has.
But on the other hand, if itâs really an F10 that has been made with good selections, there is definitely breeding value in it. I think the important thing that isnât always being communicated to growers is the information and understanding about the parents of the seeds they bought.
If you cross 2 parents that are F1s, you really can see a lot more variation and a lot more phenotypes than if you cross 2 parents that are IBLs. And this is somewhat important for buyers to understand. If youâre buying a cross of not just F1s, but perhaps several generations deep polyhybrids, you can easily have more phenotypes than seeds, even if you buy 10 packs. So at that point, can you even call it a âstrainâ? IMO youâre not buying a strain any longer, youâre buying a pheno hunt.
But if you buy a polyhybrid and an IBL and grow a pack of each, you will immediately see the difference in the way that the plants grow and express themselves. I donât like getting ripped off, but Iâll know if something is inbred. Of course, I might be only be able to approximate how many generations inbred, but really, anything beyond F3 is almost a world apart from a poly.
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I appreciate being able to discuss it. Thanks @lefthandseeds
As far as I can tell, almost all weed seeds are the product of a lot of hybridization, with the one possible exception of true landraces (which are unbelievably rare in this day and age). So to me, the argument against polyhybrids is somewhat meaningless because pretty much all building blocks that weâve ever had access to since the 1930s were already polyhybrids.
This is where that weed mythology comes into play again. All the backstories of all the famed old strains are murky at best, and outright lies made to fit a story in many many many other cases. Seedfinder and other provenance data is cool to trace back 2 or 3 generations, but prior to that itâs 100% a crapshoot. Nobody knows where any of this shit came from and most of what they claim is lies and bullshit. People have been renaming weed for 70+ years if it brought them a higher price. This fact is why Iâm against monetizing cannabis in almost every case - it incentivizes lying.
Getting back to generational discussion, whatâs the value in a double digit generation IBL? It doesnât make a lot of sense to me. Look at the bad results of supposedly well-managed âobservationalâ breeding in dogs and humans? Dog lines are disposed to joint issues and 80% of some lines get incurable cancers. Royal families are genetically screwed after being inbred for only a few generations, so much so that thereâs laws against marrying 1st cousins in most Western countries. Why do we want that in cannabis?
What value is there to the end consumer of flowers, or the people growing them, in doing that to cannabis? And why is nobody documenting it when they claim to have long IBLs?
This isnât the case with most vegetables or Big Ag products. Whatâs the difference? They have a lot more time, money, and science behind their choices along the way to that IBL. 
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I agree about the nanners part Iâm trying to avoid nanners at all points of flower from day 1 to chop if itâs a nanner saying hey asshole I should have been chopped last week cool but not interested in a hey 3 more weeks to go welcome to flower by flower inspection to pick this weekâs nanners off 
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In my post, I was really referring to the more scientific definition of polyhybrid â for example, crossing two F1s is a polyhybrid, and an F1 hybrid being the product of two fairly homozygous parents. In that sense, supposing you had cookies IBL and chemdog IBL and crossed them, it is not a polyhybrid. It is an F1 hybrid.
To me, the âmythologyâ aspect is a result of the separation between cannabis breeders and science. In part, itâs a very experiential process. I think a lot of people arenât interested in the science part, because they donât see the value in it. And even someone who has a science degree, like me, can sympathize with that sentiment. Iâm not certain that using a reductionist approach to cannabinoids can provide an accurate enough scientific framework to be able to know a priori how to design a strain to accomplish a certain goal. Weâre still a long way off from that. So for the most part, people are approximating what theyâre looking for by combining cuts or strains that have the properties they want.
But on the other hand, at least having a basic understanding of genetics is certainly beneficial toward isolating traits and forming expectations about what will happen when you inbreed a strain. However, if you notice whatâs going on, people are often not making seeds this way anymore. Instead, itâs all about finding cuts. And when you find a good cut, you find something else thatâs good and you cross them. To some extent it âworksâ, but in reality, all sorts of other things come out of crossing these heterozygous polyhybrids.
To give you an example, from a Mendelian genetics perspective, when you cross two homozygous parents, there are only 3 possibilities for single gene pair inheritance traits - AA x AA (all offspring express dominant), AA x aa (all offspring express dominant), aa x aa (all offspring express recessive). Pretty simple. But when you cross two polyhybrids, you add other possibilities â Aa x Aa (75% express dominant, 25% express recessive), aa x Aa (50% each), AA x Aa (all dominant). And then you compound this by the number of heterozygous traits and multiple gene pair traits, etc. So this is the mess we get into today by repeatedly crossing and never inbreeding. You HAVE to find âelite cutsâ of these lines, because the seeds are an absolute mess of phenos.
Anyway, my main point is that if you want to avoid that situation, then you have to stop hybridizing things that havenât been inbred at all. I donât necessarily think that you need double digit filial generations or anything like that. But if you grow out 10 seeds of each of your parents, and they all look different, then itâs a pretty good indication that youâre going to get even more varied representation in the offspring.
So to finally answer some of your points 
The value is that if you have an F10 for instance, and it has some traits you like, you can use it to breed and if you select the right breeding partner, pass those traits along as well. Additionally, by using an F10 instead of a polyhybrid, when you make a cross with it, there will be consistency in the resulting seeds.
I would say that if you only grow clones, whether commercially or at home, there is not any value. But if you lose that polyhybrid clone and hope to find it again from seeds, you will have quite a bit of difficulty.
In my broadly generalized opinion, polyhybrids are best for people wanting to pheno hunt the latest greatest cut. (True F1) Hybrids are for growers looking to buy something fairly repeatable, and with good certainty that any given plant will represent something similar to what the breeder and other people have grown. IBLs are mostly for breeders to use in making a hybrid.
To be honest, I donât know if there is a difference and Iâm not entirely certain that Big Ag sells IBLs. I would think that they would sell a well characterized hybrid of two IBLs. But I donât know for sure.
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Thereâs the one website that someone posted here somewhere⌠he IBL Northern lights to get it to adapt to souther climate, and ended up reverse engineering the breed all together.
Found it http://southeastlights.org/
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I think this is why breeders just need to make proper selections like begets like if they bottleneck their line and select for meh traits IBLâs are gonna suck
but letâs say you take a line and grow it out in 2 different directions & then cross each other I think it would be a great way to select for consistent traits & reintroduce vigor without needing to outcross
Mean Gene talks about having those lines worked out in this & ways to avoid inbreeding depression
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Yep, thats one way to do it. Lock in traits with the IBLs and then combine them to regain hybrid vigor.
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(thought experiment incoming)
But aside from Big Ag science-based IBLs, how do we âlock in traitsâ when we strongly suspect that mendelian genetics are trumped by epigenetics and terroir in highly adaptable species like humans, dogs, and cannabis? We see this every day, all day, when people get genetic clones of the same new hype plant, spread it around the world, and the expressions of that same cut are vastly, vastly different. Not to mention the simple fact that the quality of the grow impacts the flavor, smell, effects, and potency, as does each personâs endocannabinoid system. If we donât want to be reductionist, how do we want to be that standardizes the methodology and testing of all these facets of the experience?
These questions are mostly rhetorical, so please donât feel like you have to answer them, but they underpin why I donât see any value in IBLs. Even if you had a perfect weed IBL strain, super stable by cannabis standards, it wouldnât meet the Big Ag requirements for stability or consistency. We canât even get a clone to be stable in different environments, and by whose rubrik or definition of what âstableâ means anyway? You wouldnât get exactly what every other consumer of it gets around the world like you do with standard varieties of food crops, fruits and veggies no matter the growing environment or method (within reason). So whatâs the value of IBL in observational breeding?
I donât think anyone can lock down more than a couple traits in observational breeding of cannabis due to epigenetics, terroir, and usersâ endocannabinoid differences.
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IMO that idea only goes so far. If you plant a Afghan clone in Kerala, India, it certainly wonât look like a Kerala landraces all of the sudden. And if it is not possible to lock in traits, then what is the point of buying different strains at all?
In some cases, Big Ag uses cloning for stability and consistency (bananas, for instance). But for seeds, I donât know the answer. I also donât know what their requirements are.
But regardless, I think that the value of an IBL is that it increases predictability in its offspring. That doesnât mean that you will get the same plant every time, but it will severely limit the number of genotypes of the offspring as compared a hybrid of polyhybrids. Both environment and genetics will play a role in the plant you grow. I donât think you can say an IBL has no value without also saying that genetics plays no part.
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theyâll change surely based upon the environment but I think we can make lists for traits and structures and backcross selections to really dial in some traits more often. Marijuana Horticulture bible talks of ways to incorporate recessive and dominate traits into selections.
yeah it would need to be like a f20 to truly be an ibl
I think what could be useful in using a more stable line is it would allow you to see certain traits you want in a cross maybe faster flowering time or better structure you can notice which plans lean a certain way so you can better set a goal & since your line is so worked you know those traits will pass down. By an S6 generation in selfing the plant will be 98%+ homozygous iâm pretty sure at that point your crosses will be a true f1 hybrid
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Thatâs exactly what Iâm talking about right there. Some âbreederâ âbreedsâ Zkittles x Gelato and calls it Runtz. Shame on them but shame on us as consumes for buying it.
I guess it hits the cheap side if your on a budget and donât mind having half your grow drop balls on your crop. Not for me!!!
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For perennial crops, like most fruits, itâs done with grafts and cuttings, then for consistency, they recommend different cultivars for different regions. From seed, many companies will sell hybrids From proven parent crosses. those That deliver very consistent results, but Wonât grow true if you saved seeds from the tomatoes you grew. Heirloom/open pollenated varieties are like the land race or stabilized strains, the group of plants that have been breed and interbred for so long that the genetics are very uniform, with a few mutations here and there. I suppose a landrace/naturalized strain can be found all over the world in isolated areas where people have tossed seeds and its allowed to grow wild (ditch weed). as long as no outside pollen drifts in, it would take a few decades but it would become naturalized and be consistent from seeds.
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Personally I think people are way too stuck into elite clone crosses when they can pop seeds and find their own elites from stuff that isnât bottle necked to herm⌠Everything starts from seeds if everyone keeps bouncing off of each other weâll end up with very little genetic variation and stuck, I like some cookies but I donât want everything to be a cookies crossed with cookies if someone takes a cookies and a land race thatâs a bit different a real hybrid not just a poly mix
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I get it. But due to legality true multi-thousand plant selections and inbreeding arenât really possible. I suspect, unlike other plants, that Cannabis canât be inbred as much as other plants without deleterious effects. The potato-leaved tomato plants have been inbred and selfed for as much as 100+ years, but in contrast, DJ Shortâs Blueberry F5 is half mutants. You canât self a Cannabis plant for more than a couple generations without getting poor quality plants, other plants can essentially go forever. Cannabis is also unlike other plants in that it is highly polymorphic, lowland jungle to 50 degrees north in Siberia is no small feat. It goes feral in just a few generations.
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it definitely will be very interesting when the future starts going towards those massive selections like orchids.
Iâve heard something like 5% of selfed plants are keepers in S2s I wonder if you could grow in maybe solo cups to select the duds.
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