There will always be a market for our little niche thing. Homegrowers of herb will be like homebrewers of beer. Endless little niche options for those that care about such things.
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Excellent point. I think people confuse the seeds/plants with the strain. The way I see it, when I buy 10 seeds, I’m really buying the 10 plants that I expect those seeds to produce. If I want to make F2s for myself, and my friends, I can. If I make a cross that turns out special, and I want to give them away, or sell them to the public, that’s my right as the owner of the plant used to make the new strain, and I think breeders who object to that are in the wrong.
Having said that, IMO, that transaction does not give me the right to mass-produce, and publically distribute seeds of that original strain. Even if you don’t sell them, you still dilute the market, and reduce the demand which has the practical effect of taking money out of someone’s pocket, and in this case, that could be some of Sub’s surviving family members, and I can’t hang with that.
I always had a soft spot for Sub. The first seeds I ever bought online were TGA strains. I got Pandora’s Box, Jillybean, Space Queen, Vortex, Querkle, and Deep Purple, in 2004 from Breedbay. I hadn’t grown in 10 years, and I’d never grown indoors, but I grew out 1 seed I found in a bud a friend gave me, in a little closet under CFLs. It turned out OK, so I bought a tent, and a real light and those seeds. The Vortex is still some of the best weed I every grew, or smoked, it was just plain good.
I think those are the core practical, and ethical ideas behind the preservation runs. We’re not out to negatively impact anyone’s financial life, but those of us who care about the plant recognize there’s a need to preserve landrace, and rare/discontinued hybrid strains for the health of the larger genome. And absolutely, the original breeder should be credited for their contribution.
Like @Sunvalley pointed out, Space Queen isn’t available, and hasn’t been available for quite a while. The original breeder, Vic High, died a couple of years ago, and with Sub’s passing, I think a preservation run on SQ is required.
Besides, Tiny Bomb was sooo good. 
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I get that people feel bad about stepping on the toes of others.
But, this isn’t like Subcool came up with a new invention that changed the game entirely, nothing he or anyone else has done recently has been unique enough to necessitate an informal “patent”.
Is RC cola infringing on Coke? Maybe if you ask Coke, they’d love to be the only Cola available. But soda isn’t that unusual, it’s sugar, phosphoric acid, flavor, and carbonation. That formula existed well prior to Cola-type formulations.
Perhaps I could see it being a problem if you spent a decade making a real variety completely from scratch. Like, I took two landraces, bred them, and then spent 10 years stabilizing them. Or, taking a current variety/clone and spending multiple generations working them from there. Problem is, IBL lines are best for breeding, so it’s sort of a catch-22. Inbred lines like what Sensi, ACE, Shanti sell are often the cheapest options. Guys like Dying Breed charge $500 for 10 seeds of the latest hype strain, but guys like ACE who took a pure African sativa and adapted it to indoor cultivation over a decade charge like $50. Who put in more work lol.
I think, long story short, when we start thinking of people owning plants, we get away from the spirit of the plant. An IBL is a valuable thing, representing years of work. Yet, most IBL lines are very cheap.
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I think he’d say grow them. Preserve them and overgrow them! Also, I’d love to help preserve. I was with him in the end. We had big plans that my other half and I are trying to continue without our friend. RIP Subcool. 
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Proposed: Dannyboy re-creation
Need: Killer Queen female, Ortega x C99 male(cherry pheno), (someone who saw it to verify would be good)
This would be completely for giving away freely, never ever sold.
Anybody?
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Ahem. 
Ok?
So we/I/whoever needs to shake down peeps for either good seed or cuts. I can order a pack towards this project & don’t doubt you all are game, since I just got the ‘10 likes’ 
And then there’s the who’s growin, who’s testin, & whatnot.
At the moment & for probably 6 months out I can’t do shit as far as growing them out but am eager to stay on this one.
Sub wasn’t a saint or whatever(definitely was disappointed by him at times) but I have no reservations about doing a few cool things like this.
So what’s up weednerds?
(edit/update:)
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@SCJedi @deep_rob can you point a brotha in a direction on some of these? 
Killer Queen female, Ortega x C99 male(cherry pheno)
@Sharpi 
Any thoughts/comments? 
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I for one personally don’t care how breeders feel on the subject. If I buy a car and want to modify sell or make recreation performance parts I don’t call Cummins asking for permission.
You sell me seeds they aren’t yours any more they are mine.
You give me a cut or seeds and ask me not to pass it around thats a completely different story. Then I wouldn’t.
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In the horticultural world, generally the sexual reproduction and crossing is fine and doesn’t violate plant patents (at least with perennials). The patents are usually issued for cultivars that are grown and sold as clones of the original, any sales would have to pay a royalty to the patent holder. Things like my blueberry and raspberries come with a notice of patent, no asexual reproduction of the plant can done, although raspberries and black berries will grow and spread with just pieces of roots. Making clones for personal use seem to be ok, but selling them will be violating the patent. But if I wanted to breed two patented cultivars together, find a keeper to propagate and sell/trade it, there’s no legal issue.
With other plants like tomatoes, they protect themselves by selective breeding for hybrids, so any seeds produced won’t grow true. How it would apply with cannabis is something to be worked out once it’s all legal, and pharmaceutical companies will figure out a way to patent a strain or the extracts made from their strains. Just like how Driscoll has many many patents on their berry cultivars, but they never release any of them to the public.
I did see a documentary that explained a European pharmaceutical company that has patents on their strains, exact growing conditions, and blend of their extracts that they use for their medicines (shown in form of a inhaler on the doc). The refinements and blends are what they call a medicine, the raw plant Materials and extracts we use are “just for herbalist and for recreation”. Anything they can to make legal claim on their product, can’t really blame them if they wanted to make an industry of it.
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I dont know man. I mean i believe in giving credit where credit is due or whatever but nobody is going to tell me wbat I can and can’t do with ants I grow. If I make seeds and I used my time, space, knowhow then that is mine. People can cry about it all they want. Like i said give credit but my labor is my labor nobody elses. Just my opinion
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Everyone is standing on the shoulders of giants, weed always wants to be free imho. 
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As I understand it many of subcool’s lines were lost before he passed away due to that nasty fire, so I think that any preservation of what is left of the genetics that he worked with is important
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I have mixed feelings but it depends on the situation, breeding them for preservation i see no issue with but only if used as such as has been stated by many before me. When it comes to strains I feel if I bought the seeds, took the risk of getting and growing them then yes its my choice if I want to make more, same with clones but if like in the case of my buddy who’s given me clones and plants in past, I’ve given other friends cuttings and whatnot but I won’t charge for it (maybe some strain trading but not actual monetary) as it wasnt my work originally. If that makes sense, that said im down for preservation and shit. Don’t have seeds to put in but would be down to help by throwing in a few bucks if someone finds packs to do so with. Damn I’m rambling sorry if I make no sense today .
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I agree that strain preservation is important.
(If I were a breeder, I’d definitely want my strains to live on after me).
I think that seeds are pretty much fair game for cloning and breeding. UNLESS it was a popular strain still in production, OR of the proceeds were going to the breeders kids. Otherwise- Grow on!
Does anyone know if DJ Short ever gave his opinion on this subject?
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considering the fact that his son is a breeder also, I would assume that any mothers of cultivars or genetics that are stashed would stay within the family, though he lost a lot of his best genetics long ago
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Desire to know more intensifies…
Can you expand on that a little bit? I’d love to learn more about the history and where it’s ended up in current times.
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Can that be in a new thread(e.g. DJ/JD/OldWorld… ?)
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Even when you grow from seed your never going to get exactly the mother or father plant that the bReeder used you may come close . How would a person even know if they came close unless they seen the parent plants.
To really get a plant worth breeding it takes allot of seed poping. Just because you take two of the same strains and mix them you won’t get a copy of a strain your looking for .
The only plants that will make up that breeders plants are the exact plants he used. Those two plants are lost to time unless he shared them. It’s really a mute point who ever is worried about you recreating their strain for profit. That’s why there’s so much varying between companies that came to have the same OG , WHITE Widow , sour d. S1 is the closest youll come with oUT intense breeding program. Yes similar but not duplicated. But if your going to do that much breeding it truly is yours.
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FWIW, re: the Dannyboy “recreation” I’m suggesting, I realize that stuff & don’t pretend to have the ability. Just goodwill.
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I wasn’t replying to you saying you had Ill will . I’m All for you keeping the his seed line around. I have a older pack doing the same with soon.
My argument was I personally think breeders who sell seeds have no say what happens with anything they sell. It doesn’t belong to them . If they love that plant so much don’t sell seeds of it.
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