Subcool Seed Run Ethics

Breeder's Lab
#42

I may be alone here but imo you paid for the seeds so you have every right to do what you please with them. How many of you purchased seeds as souvenirs then proceeded to plant and grow them? The majority of us here are doing this illegally and the sellers of seeds knowing supplies seeds to illegal growers.

I think those who disagree with my stance might want to get off their moral high horse and really look at this for what it is.

It’s like buying a house and adding a sunroom or garage. How dare you!!! You should honor the builder or architect by keeping it the way they intended to be.
If this sounds stupid that’s because it is. Not like there is a copyright protection on marijuana seeds.

Personally I would be flattered that someone enjoyed some a product of mine so much that they wanted to preserve it for others to enjoy.

Just my 2 cents

26 Likes
#43

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, yes, strict regulation has severely limited large scale breeding, and even within state commercial markets, it’s questionable if breeding could ever be profitable without reforming laws. Considering plant limits and the high cost of license in many states, breeding has limited opportunity inside the US. Monsanto has taken their cannabis operations to Uruguay, last I heard.

On the other hand, even if drug cultivar breeding were viable for commercial markets, I’m not certain that I would want to grow them myself. Consider how many types of bananas you can buy at the grocery store (only one), or how few options you find in those Burpee packets. Boring. They would seek to commercialize an extremely limited subset of cannabis genetics. Everything commercial would likely fit a very narrow profile that concentrates on numbers and not experiences and effects. Large %'s, high yields, dense buds, short flowering. Commercial breeders will do a great job at achieving cannabis that best economizes commercial growing.

For home growers that can easily outpace their own demands, commercial strains can even be considered detrimental to their goals. I don’t waste my time trying to distill everclear when I can just go to the store and buy it. Why would I waste my time trying to grow a commercially available product?

But to most people weed is just weed. I’m sure you could offer 1-2 strains at a dispensary and just put a bunch of different labels on them, and at least 90% of their customers wouldn’t know the difference or even care. Those are the people commercial breeders will serve.

26 Likes
#44

Cannabis culture, until recent years, has thrived off a tongue-in-cheek, alternative vibe, and there’s no better example of that than the industry’s long history of outlandish strain names. Some are fairly innocuous (Grand Daddy Purp sounds like a friendly, old neighbor); others are a bit more in-your-face (some Chernobyl, anyone?); and a few wink at other famous brands (may the force be with you if you choose Skywalker OG).

But recent history has shown that parodying other well-known companies can land you in hot water. Just ask the team at GG Strains, the creators of GG4 (formerly known as Gorilla Glue #4). In 2017, GG Strains received a letter from the Gorilla Glue adhesive company summoning the cannabis company to federal court for trademark violations. (For more on this lawsuit, and its outcome, read “Gorilla Glue vs. Gorilla Glue” in the November 2017 issue of Cannabis Business Times.)

“Our attorney fees we’ll be paying off probably until our grandchildren are born,” says Catherine Franklin, GG Strains’ director of marketing, chief digital officer and cultivator liaison. She estimates the costs in the tens of thousands, and rising. “People don’t realize that a federal lawyer is more than $500 an hour. Each email is minimum of one hour.”
https://www.cannabisbusinesstimes.com/article/are-your-strain-names-bait-for-a-lawsuit/

11 Likes
#45

There is a difference between having a right and being in the right. The first is legal question and the second is ethical. For me, since I respected subcool and his work, I want to try to abide by his last wishes. We don’t yet know what his wishes were.

Selling seeds as novelties or shipping them to states where sprouting is illegal does not change anything. That kind of thinking of for people who give a shit about the law. The relationship between a small seed company and an illegal grower is be both a business relationship and a brotherhood, IMO.

13 Likes
#46

I appreciate anyone who dedicates that much time and effort to the plant that we all love and think it’s great that they can make a profit doing so.

I’m guessing there are ways to protect your strains and breeding if you want to go 100% legal but your sales .would greatly suffer missing out on all the illegal sales.

I guess in the end it’s up to the breeders to decide how important there work is to them. I have absolutely zero issues with growers making seeds for old discontinued strains as long as they are not claiming it as their own and profiting from someone hard work.

10 Likes
#47

I’m not at all for Federal legalization at this point. I won’t speculate on how the large Ag and Pharmaceutical companies would fuck everything up, but I’m confident they would.

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#48

If you bought the seeds then they are yours to do with as you please. I seen Sub (RIP) go off on people for doing personal breedings with strains of his that they had bought fare and square … that was something i didnt like and ethically no one was doing anything wrong with the seeds that they paid for… Space queen is no longer available and if someone wants to preserve the strain then they should do so because ethically you are preserving for a culture and not for anything malicious or opportunistic … your seeds your decision… no one else’s… Subs name will always be attached to the strain and preservation is not taking away the cultural history of one but more so giving back to a community as an honour to them and what they did

24 Likes
#49

Very well said

7 Likes
#50

There will always be a market for our little niche thing. Homegrowers of herb will be like homebrewers of beer. Endless little niche options for those that care about such things.

17 Likes
#51

Excellent point. I think people confuse the seeds/plants with the strain. The way I see it, when I buy 10 seeds, I’m really buying the 10 plants that I expect those seeds to produce. If I want to make F2s for myself, and my friends, I can. If I make a cross that turns out special, and I want to give them away, or sell them to the public, that’s my right as the owner of the plant used to make the new strain, and I think breeders who object to that are in the wrong.

Having said that, IMO, that transaction does not give me the right to mass-produce, and publically distribute seeds of that original strain. Even if you don’t sell them, you still dilute the market, and reduce the demand which has the practical effect of taking money out of someone’s pocket, and in this case, that could be some of Sub’s surviving family members, and I can’t hang with that.

I always had a soft spot for Sub. The first seeds I ever bought online were TGA strains. I got Pandora’s Box, Jillybean, Space Queen, Vortex, Querkle, and Deep Purple, in 2004 from Breedbay. I hadn’t grown in 10 years, and I’d never grown indoors, but I grew out 1 seed I found in a bud a friend gave me, in a little closet under CFLs. It turned out OK, so I bought a tent, and a real light and those seeds. The Vortex is still some of the best weed I every grew, or smoked, it was just plain good.

I think those are the core practical, and ethical ideas behind the preservation runs. We’re not out to negatively impact anyone’s financial life, but those of us who care about the plant recognize there’s a need to preserve landrace, and rare/discontinued hybrid strains for the health of the larger genome. And absolutely, the original breeder should be credited for their contribution.

Like @Sunvalley pointed out, Space Queen isn’t available, and hasn’t been available for quite a while. The original breeder, Vic High, died a couple of years ago, and with Sub’s passing, I think a preservation run on SQ is required.

Besides, Tiny Bomb was sooo good. :upside_down_face:

20 Likes
#52

I get that people feel bad about stepping on the toes of others.

But, this isn’t like Subcool came up with a new invention that changed the game entirely, nothing he or anyone else has done recently has been unique enough to necessitate an informal “patent”.

Is RC cola infringing on Coke? Maybe if you ask Coke, they’d love to be the only Cola available. But soda isn’t that unusual, it’s sugar, phosphoric acid, flavor, and carbonation. That formula existed well prior to Cola-type formulations.

Perhaps I could see it being a problem if you spent a decade making a real variety completely from scratch. Like, I took two landraces, bred them, and then spent 10 years stabilizing them. Or, taking a current variety/clone and spending multiple generations working them from there. Problem is, IBL lines are best for breeding, so it’s sort of a catch-22. Inbred lines like what Sensi, ACE, Shanti sell are often the cheapest options. Guys like Dying Breed charge $500 for 10 seeds of the latest hype strain, but guys like ACE who took a pure African sativa and adapted it to indoor cultivation over a decade charge like $50. Who put in more work lol.

I think, long story short, when we start thinking of people owning plants, we get away from the spirit of the plant. An IBL is a valuable thing, representing years of work. Yet, most IBL lines are very cheap.

29 Likes
#53

I think he’d say grow them. Preserve them and overgrow them! Also, I’d love to help preserve. I was with him in the end. We had big plans that my other half and I are trying to continue without our friend. RIP Subcool. :v: :purple_heart::seedling:

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#54

Proposed: Dannyboy re-creation

Need: Killer Queen female, Ortega x C99 male(cherry pheno), (someone who saw it to verify would be good)

This would be completely for giving away freely, never ever sold.

:man_shrugging:

Anybody?

:evergreen_tree:

17 Likes
#55

Ahem. :eyes: Ok?

So we/I/whoever needs to shake down peeps for either good seed or cuts. I can order a pack towards this project & don’t doubt you all are game, since I just got the ‘10 likes’ :star2: :sweat_smile:

And then there’s the who’s growin, who’s testin, & whatnot.

At the moment & for probably 6 months out I can’t do shit as far as growing them out but am eager to stay on this one.

Sub wasn’t a saint or whatever(definitely was disappointed by him at times) but I have no reservations about doing a few cool things like this.

So what’s up weednerds?

(edit/update:)

:evergreen_tree: :sandwich: :tropical_drink:

19 Likes
#56

@SCJedi @deep_rob can you point a brotha in a direction on some of these? :blush: Killer Queen female, Ortega x C99 male(cherry pheno)

@Sharpi :pray: Any thoughts/comments? :woman_shrugging:

:evergreen_tree:

8 Likes
#57

I for one personally don’t care how breeders feel on the subject. If I buy a car and want to modify sell or make recreation performance parts I don’t call Cummins asking for permission.
You sell me seeds they aren’t yours any more they are mine.
You give me a cut or seeds and ask me not to pass it around thats a completely different story. Then I wouldn’t.

17 Likes
#58

In the horticultural world, generally the sexual reproduction and crossing is fine and doesn’t violate plant patents (at least with perennials). The patents are usually issued for cultivars that are grown and sold as clones of the original, any sales would have to pay a royalty to the patent holder. Things like my blueberry and raspberries come with a notice of patent, no asexual reproduction of the plant can done, although raspberries and black berries will grow and spread with just pieces of roots. Making clones for personal use seem to be ok, but selling them will be violating the patent. But if I wanted to breed two patented cultivars together, find a keeper to propagate and sell/trade it, there’s no legal issue.
With other plants like tomatoes, they protect themselves by selective breeding for hybrids, so any seeds produced won’t grow true. How it would apply with cannabis is something to be worked out once it’s all legal, and pharmaceutical companies will figure out a way to patent a strain or the extracts made from their strains. Just like how Driscoll has many many patents on their berry cultivars, but they never release any of them to the public.
I did see a documentary that explained a European pharmaceutical company that has patents on their strains, exact growing conditions, and blend of their extracts that they use for their medicines (shown in form of a inhaler on the doc). The refinements and blends are what they call a medicine, the raw plant Materials and extracts we use are “just for herbalist and for recreation”. Anything they can to make legal claim on their product, can’t really blame them if they wanted to make an industry of it.

7 Likes
#59

I dont know man. I mean i believe in giving credit where credit is due or whatever but nobody is going to tell me wbat I can and can’t do with ants I grow. If I make seeds and I used my time, space, knowhow then that is mine. People can cry about it all they want. Like i said give credit but my labor is my labor nobody elses. Just my opinion

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#60

Everyone is standing on the shoulders of giants, weed always wants to be free imho. :grin:

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#61

As I understand it many of subcool’s lines were lost before he passed away due to that nasty fire, so I think that any preservation of what is left of the genetics that he worked with is important

12 Likes