Subcool Strawberry Diesel x Space Dude F2 and Friends Grow

[Cormoran]

@Gpaw

I can see this being very applicable when selfing a plant… That also backs up BOG saying S1’s aren’t good breeding material.

I think S1’s are technically sexual reproduction, since it’s done by forcing the plant to express as male via application of silver or rodelization. I think S1’s still generally aren’t good breeding material because, unless it’s a S1 of an IBL, it’s not going to be much more stable in terms of recessives than a F2… which is famously where the freaks come out to play.

@Gpaw

Is that applicable to a clone?

I think so? Chapter 3 FSC-506 MSc.(Ag) Hort) Fruit Science Sub Breeding of Fruit Crops This is the closest thing I could find to a clear reference to clone degeneration that wasn’t about sci-fi, or other cannabis forums asking the same question. I was going to discuss it further, but it turned into another three pages and I figured it would be better not to hijack the thread too much.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that the “Blueberry” I got from that friend of a friend, after a decade of taking clones of clones, came out terribly for me. Northern Lights, fresh from seed and grown with the same techniques and equipment as the Blueberry, came out great.

[ReikoX]

I was always under the impression that what is observed as genetic drift was actually the accumulation of viruses and pathogens.

[Cormoran]

According to that paper, mutations in clones are possible but unlikely; it does seem like it would take more than 20 crops or so to accumulate that many. That being said, every time a plant grows a new cell there’s a tiny chance for a mutation… but still, it’s more likely to happen from disease, and that’s probably what happened in my case. I don’t know what kind of growing environment he kept, I’ve never met the guy; but I’m fairly sure he did a lot of cloning. If he didn’t clean thoroughly even a few times, that’s a very simple explanation, much simpler than stacked mutations. Anyway, apparently it’s actually not 100% reliable even if you do have a clean room; without a clean room, it starts getting less reliable.

[LegsMahoney]

More proof that the real way to preserve genetics is to work them through line breeding to an inbred and consistent state. No small task by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems over and over like the best way to truly preserve something you love. The problem being, from what I can see, that the journey to that end has a million steps and any misstep along the way could ruin what you’re attempting to achieve. Probably why clone culture is so prominent and inbred seed lines are so hard to come by right?

[Eagles009]

This conversation is fitting for a little project I have in mind. Is there a technical definition for inbred line. How is it differentiated from taking a plant to whatever generation?

I have a plant I want to stabilize / replicate but am not sure what path to take. Current plan is throw darts and see what sticks.

[middleman]

@Eagles009

How is it differentiated from taking a plant to whatever generation?

I think there would be some backcrossing involved.

[Astrodude]

@Eagles009

Is there a technical definition for inbred line

A Blue Dog is evidence!

[Eagles009]

Lol, I had to think for half a second but that’s good!

[Eagles009]

Yeah I was thinking I’d self it and back cross it and see what’s closer for starters. I’m really pretty clueless about all this. Couple hours of research should set me straight though.

[LegsMahoney]

I’ve never heard a designated description (doesn’t mean there is’nt one) but I would assume you could consider a line “inbred” if you can identify a specific number of phenotypes that it’s seed would produce? Ideally there would only be one, but I would assume if you could reduce it to only 3-4 phenos overall you could comfortably call it inbred.

This is just me shooting from the hip here if someone knows better and I’m wrong please for the love of god correct me!!!

[Cormoran]

@Eagles009

This conversation is fitting for a little project I have in mind. Is there a technical definition for inbred line. How is it differentiated from taking a plant to whatever generation?

Depends what definition you’re using. In cannabis, it’s often considered an IBL at F6 or so, i.e:

@LegsMahoney

if you could reduce it to only 3-4 phenos overall you could comfortably call it inbred.

That’s usually around F4-F6, at least obvious phenos. There are a lot more variations that we just don’t test for and thus can’t selectively breed for, I’m sure. For other forms of life… there’s a slightly more rigorous definition:

Inbred strain

[LegsMahoney]

Damn! There you go 20 generations, which I guess would result in only a single phenotype from seed right?

[deeez99]

Not sure if this helps but I found it interesting. I’ve heard several times over that selfing is not the best option for breeding but I first came across the term Single Seed Descent recently from a post by Diggy Soze with a video he posted on cannabis breeding.

Diggy’s Dungeon

[Foundations of Genomics and How it Relates to Cannabis Breeding] Definitely worth listening to in the background as you work. Couple thoughts: Open pollination; might be a good rule of thumb that this be the first step in every breeding project. Can’t go backwards after you’re bottlenecked. Bulk Selection; Used to quickly acclimate a line to your environment, by letting natural selection drive for the first few generations, and selecting the best individuals to continue from…

The relevant part of selfing to increase homozygosity starts at 1:39:25

And the Single Seed Descent part is at 2:30:47

Not sure I fully grasp everything presented but it was an interesting starting point for myself. There’s obviously pros and cons to any method used.

[Eagles009]

13 days ago

Today

Day two 1212 on these guys. Two in the middle are the crosses. Both looking fem.

[Gpaw]

Look’n Good!

Cheers
G

[Qtip]

What size is that tent? 4’ x 1’?

[Eagles009]

Closer to 3 x 1.

[Eagles009]

Day 38 flower

27 days ago

Now

Two weeks this thing should look pretty smokeable I wager. I’m not backing off my pink starburst nose…but I do detect a deep, latent sweet watermelon thing that I don’t recall from the seeded plant. Maybe I was just sniffing it less at this stage last go. Maybe it smells different sensi.

These buds are much denser than I was expecting. I guess that makes sense it did put out ~5500 seeds.

[MoBilly]

Very nice! I was wondering if she would bulk up much. She is.

[4ftfarmer]

@Eagles009

I’m not backing off my pink starburst nose…but I do detect a deep, latent sweet watermelon thing that I don’t recall from the seeded plant.

Both oustanding! Either way! Looking remarkbly simillar in other aspect besides the nose!