There has been trading amongst South East Asian and the African west coast for many, many decades and its how cannabis reached our shores. Anything happening in the 1950’s would’ve been more of the same really. They found a city in Mozambique thats 200 000 years old and was a trading hub. Unfortunately a lot of history has been lost or perverted during colonization so trade in seeds could’ve been happening much, much sooner. There was a video series on some of that history but I can’t seem to find it anymore. There they touched on how some tribes from my area would go up to swaziland to get seeds as they had better / stronger strains. Its why I often chuckle at all these “varieties” being sold when its really mostly the same stuff.
But I dont see how any outside genetics could’ve made that huge of an impact on the local varieties. The weather in that area is perfect for PM so any strains without pm resistance wouldn’t have lasted. The wind is crazy there too so any fat leafed plants would get trashed. Pictures I’ve seen of transkei strains from the 1950s look almost identical to todays ones and there has been a constant stream of outside genetics in the area. Would be very interesting to see data on genetic changes when a handful of seeds gets introduced into a system where the best suited gentics for the area has been going strong for so long. I’m curious how much impact there would be.
You could you drop a link to this info?
Edit: I’m just curious to find out more myself, I typed this in a hurry and seeing it now it, I don’t want to come across like I’m being a dick. The local story is that some guys took bagseed back with them from here and used that to make DP in Holland. I’ve never heard about it being made in the states so would be interested to read more about that
I think edd recently revealed publicly that the genetics were actually sourced in Europe in 79-80. I’m not too sure were that was. I will try to find some documentation of it. But im sure it came out of something they were calling durban poison pencil sticks, wich was a import coming in at the time. A lot of those guys have been giving jumbled up histories for quite some time. Its a good thing that people are having the chance now to source original landrace stock themselves from verified sources.
well it seem durban poison is one of the strains that brings confusion to some, and rightfully so.
since there where two phenos. one with a longer time frame (green Pheno) and the other pheno the red.
the red pheno is the durban poison we all know and here about. we know more info on the red pheno as
people like mel frank and ed rosenthal who as the story goes brought the red pheno strain to be worked on.
we know this on the red pheno as the durban poison we have and know today.
short flower time, cut with skunks or hindu kush to help have a fast flower time and a good yield.
so if you search durban poison this information will come up as the accepted truth.
i posted a video of mel frank talking about durban poison, wishing he kept the other pheno
durban poison is considered a landrace, while this seems logical to label it as such, it truly is not the case, as it is one of the land races from the area.
it was named after durban because of the city it was found by. and poison was tagged to it as anything bad for you was poison. durban poison was the name given to the strain by ed rosenthal.
the genetics were shared worked on in holland ect. there are links above to show that it is partial fact.
i can promise you in the 70s when the strain was found that the two, mel and ed did not go hunting for strains in nearby villages or what not, most likely they asked around for the dagga and got seeded bud, smuggled the seeds out, however.
The Green Pheno is a south african landrace that could possibly have ties to one of the neighboring areas and has a long flower time of 16 plus weeks. from what i see growing is pure sativa and possibly the lost pheno.
I started this thread with the title 1973 durban sativa, with the poison attached as the label of the seed states.
i simply am try to research the other pheno from the find in the 70s. and i am trying to find out what strain i have. once they go in flower it will be easier to id.
we do not know much about the green pheno.
except it comes from one of the 3 strains listed way above, that seems to be traced to the tribe listed above.
just seems though with more and more links and more research all kinds of magic happen, and that is pursuit of the truth, and that is to find the strain i am growing right now.
i can assure you all though when this grow is done, there will be like a book report/summery at the end that will have nothing but facts, and truths were all can click on links ect.
so if the green pheno is the long lost pheno then i have shed light on the strain and perhaps discovered it was not lost, just in plain site with a different name and i am pretty sure that is the case.
time will tell though as to what the strain will be. what strain will be the one i have growing now.
Totally agree with you. I think by now its probably completely bred out, but back in the 60’s or 70’s, maybe just a small glimpse of this intro was left. Don’t discount the love a cannabis farmer has for new weed highs. I’ve grown Afghan in NY for a quarter century. Without my help it would have disappeared long ago. Today it has acquired some mold resistance without ourcrossing, due to just one stubborn farmer. Me.
Think about what the modern farmers have put up with to introduce Indica genes today, yet they still keep it around( I’m sure many farmers long for the old strains) because it’s a stronger, different high and a better yield. ( f1’s anyway)The same was probably true then. I try to imagine someone who has only known Sativas smoking something Indica for the first time. It must be the talk of the town!
SE Aisa does seem to be the oldest source of South African cannabis, but not the only source. I've been looking for the parent landraces to those in S Africa, trying to link all of the Red varieties together using history. I've been thinking that perhaps Cambodian Red or Red Thai are the ancestors of Swazi Red. Too bad there is a big ? regarding Indonesian landraces. My gut says it comes from here, but I've never seen anything available from this area, and only one photo of Aceh landrace. The more digging that is done, the further back in time the date for cannabis in S Africa is pushed. They recently found incredibly old pollen in Namibia.( Maybe someone can recall the date? I've posted it on OG before) It's at least 10,000 years old, i remember that much.
By the 1200's Arabic ( Persian) genetics were brought to Mozambique via the island of Zanzibar, and were spread around the whole area, mixing with anything growing there already. Going by actual proven records, this is the earliest introduction of cannabis to South Africa. I'm with you though. I agree and think that there has been a much earlier introduction and they just haven't found enough evidence of it yet.
[quote=“anon98152597, post:121, topic:70654”]
Would be very interesting to see data on genetic changes when a handful of seeds gets introduced into a system where the best suited gentics for the area has been going strong for so long. I’m curious how much impact there would be.
I’m curious too. It probably takes lots of new genetics to irrevocably change a landrace, the problem in today’s world is the accessibility to these new genetics. Today it is a constant influx of new genetics we have to worry about
Definitely all related, but like today's grass can be quite different despite the relation. Each microclimate/ tribe offers something slightly different. I want to try it all😁
yeah can you imagine, i know cannabis plants are strong plants that adapt to wherever they are grown, time is all it would take.
i had also read that the tribes, one of them was asked about cannabis and they said, we like the effects, so pretty much the reason why Evey grower has a garden going, besides the fact the plants look good, it is the smokable buds that bring the rewards.
i can only imagine how the strains traveled from the se asia, throughout the rest of the world and that shows us all those humans have had a love of cannabis since the beginning.
i can agree with you on wanting to try them all. i have been trying for years and still have not had them all, ive had lots and still want more haha
ok update so far, they got a small baby feed of some nutrients, so i will see how they like it. im hoping to have the plants explode into growth but we all know how that is.
so far real slow in veg. there is not much action on these just yet
what i am seeing though is sativa growth, thinner leaves, slower veg, ect.
these are sitting at the fourth week mid 5th week right in that area.
time will terll though just what these will be
Ah, there are many tales of this and they have changed over the years depending on who you talk to or read. Some stories have changed over the years, even from the same people. Mainly Ed, Dave, and Mel Frank. Mel was the one that worked the original US Durban Poison strain in Oakland, CA. Mel and Ed (Rosenthal) were roommates in Oakland at that time. Ed said that he found and brought some wild Durban beans back from Amsterdam. Mel said that he grew them and they bloomed wildly and were unstable. He later bred and worked them into 2 lines, an A and B line. One he sent to Dave (Watson) in Amsterdam. The other stayed local to the west coast, mainly as a clone cut. According to Mel the local west coast line was better than the one that he sent to Dave in Amsterdam. He said in some interviews that that he had mixed the lines up and sent the lesser line to Dave by mistake.
From Mel’s two strains the two lines diverged. Mel called them the A and B lines. I forget which went where, A or B. The local Oakland strain survives to this day mainly as a clone here in the west US. It is a potent THCv line. The other line that Mel sent to Amsterdam Dave bred with his de-skunked skunk strain. That is the strain that is sold mainly as Durban Poison from several Amsterdam seed sellers. It is really a skunk-Durban hybrid, and it has lost a lot of the anise and original sandalwood terpenes in the original Durban.
There are also other Durban strains out there. South Africa has several landraces from the different tribal and autonomous regions, including Durban, Lesotho, Transkei, Pondo, and Kwa Zulu. I have grown several of these. Some are weedy and have low potency, some bloom wildly, and some have really high THCv. The original landrace Durban that I have from Europe blooms wildly starting in May through October, and supposedly that was the one that Mel worked with to stabilize blooming. That Durban line is said to have been developed and grown by 3 indigenous tribes near Durban, SA dating back 500 years.
A friend of mine here in the PNW took a cut of Watson’s Amsterdam skunk-hybrid Durban and re-crossed it back to an original landrace Durban male that I had from Europe. As I said above, that line blooms rather wildly, but the one male bloomed inOctober, and it was used to breed the good anise and sandalwood terpenes back into the line as well as preserving the stable and consistent bloom times. And maybe more THCv, which is what we were after. That line is being sold as a back cross by some seed sellers in Europe. Also locally some commercial cannabis growers have the original Mel Frank west coast cut. I have never seed seed for that sold though. Most have the Dutch seed strain that is the Durban-skunk hybrid that Watson bred. A few (like SOA) have original South African landraces. So Durban Poison can actually be one of several combinations of landrace, worked landrace, back cross and skunk-hybrid. Or hybrids of those.
As an aside, what was once grown as Durban in South Africa is said to now be locally extinct. Not unlike the other famous South African strain called Rooibaard (which means red beard in Dutch). According to my friends in Europe and South Africa, what is grown now in Durban and in much of South Africa is mainly Swazi Gold. Swazi is more potent and thus became more popular locally for growers. Not unlike the replacing of the Colombian sativas by indica hybrids in the later 1980s, Rooibaard and original Durban Poison are lost to time locally.
Used to get Durban Poison in 83-89 in Johannesburg and it was very light green rolled in small brown paper squares and extremely trippy. Durban area has a microclimate with very high humidity. It was much stronger than both Transkei and Swazi seedless and on par with the Malawi cobs we used to get sometimes.
I think rooibaard just meant lots of red pistils that could be on any strain of grass. It was a characteristic not a strain as far as i know.
Autoflower trait Durban? Flowers while daylight hours are increasing?
yes that is what ive been running into. stories that change, and it is really hard to find the true history
it seems like i read one thing but hear another, esp. about the durban poison(s). i know that they called it that as it was found in durban and was coined poison.
the hard part is like you said. it just seems like there would be better documentation on the strain they found and used. i can understand at the time, they ed,mel did not go to the tribes and get the strains ect.
i hear one story about ed and i turn around and read the opposite but saying it was mel.
so hard to narrow down to what happened.
im pretty sure the strain i am running is from the area of durban, and most likely from the out skirts of durban, and with the flowering times i have narrowed the possibilities down to just 3 of local strains.
it also seems this strain is controversial as well with some insisting one thing or another.
thank you @PanchoVilla i knew you could me with this. i appreciate the input
That is what many thought, but not so. I tested them with dark exposure. They all bloomed as regulars in response to night length. They just bloom variably (as noted by Mel Frank) to night length. The wild Durbans are sort of the opposite of landrace Colombian. The Colombians tend to resist blooming until very late season, and some bloom earlier or later than average. There is a wider range of bloom times.
I tell you a short Landrace-breedinghistory-overview. (im probably repeating myselve)
There is Hybridisation. Basically anything that doesent stemm from India, the Ancestor of all cannabis, can be hybrid. The indian genetics spread over the world, per example they went to Afghanistan, easetern Europe, and alot crossbreeding is assumed to have happend, this hybrid spread over to africa , also Thai could be a mix of a Southern Indian x Chinese, basically any landrace might been hybredized, more or less.
So, we come to a Countertheory: inbreeding.
The therm Landrace has this "inbreeding " in its Wiki definition.
Everywhere a strain residues, no matter where it once derivered from will adapt to the Natural Conditions. Also any region might have an own tradition how to select , and process Cannabis. So, any LAndrace, Thai, Columbian Afghain, might be “inbreed”. Inbreed means gone trough a certain Selectionprocess condune by the nature itselve/or Humans selection-process.
So, its not scientifically prooven how strong either the Hybridisation/nor the inbreeding is… Nothing is really on the state of Proove.
- So, whereve a stain came from doesent matter if Inbreeding has a strong power to shape any ancestor into a Durban.
- However inbreed a Strain is, doesent matter if there is recent Hybridisation.
I personally dont know. Why should i claim the one over the other…
One thing you can ask yourselve: why are the Strains so distinct in each region… This simple question may lead me to the inbreeding-theory… If things are very distinct, it must have strong inbreeding from enviroment UNLESS, well it could be a unique Hybridcomposition that lead to “unique” results…
There i imediatly think of: why are all equatorial the only Race that can trip you out to heaven… And literally no nothern Strains do that… You see alot of Consistency among Races around a certain Latitude… So, i see certain indicators with those very easy questions… No proove at all, but pattern indicating inbreeding as a propper force.
So, i cant anwser any specific Question, but this is a map of possibilities whats in there… Hybridisation is probably like multiple color-drops pooring into Water, it spreads, but never covers the whole surface Water in a new “color”. I personally assume any region on earth might have them color-drops, but any region might have pure water-regions.
Since any modern hybrid doesent impress me, including greenspoon -Barney farms Panama x Thai , or Destroyer - Cannabiogen , same lineage… doesent impress me as much as the actuall landraces that they used…
Since that i can imagine the best just beeing the purest… But no proove AT ALL.
If you people have any evidence for inbreeding/ hybridisation: SHOW ME
thats not logic imho. if no skunk adding was mentioned: it was either added in Holland- or southafrica had “fat plants”. It doesent lead me to a kush influence in southafrica.
What if southafrica had indigeen inbreed fatleaved cultivars. ?
Anyway.
There is so many claims without any proove. I just dont believe easily…
Im always open to stories, logbookentries, but… applying simple history sorys to a given Strain (its fat, its Afghani) is what i shy away.
Holy shit: Dr Greenspoon (panama x thai) tests as pretty much LAndrace on Phylos… Hmm??
So, now i dont know nomore what to think… are many landraces outcrossed, or is phylos very hard to read or unauthentic…
Cause many landrace show such percentages… like greenspoon (besides the ones from Dave wattson, those are pretty “Landrace” listed )
It boils down to flowering time for me. Most South African landraces, and in particular, Durban area landraces, flower 15-18 weeks. Swazi goes 20 weeks. 8 weeks is too fast for the latitude.
There is Lesotho that can be quick…
Thats in reference to the Hindu kush Introduction story. Where it is told kush genetics were planted in south africa by Tribals
I think its commonly accepted Durban Poison has Indica genetics in it.
As stoners age, the stories change. Brain cells die. And the people in the stories die. And giant egos prevail. And so the stories about Durban Poison on Leafly and High Times linger, supporting or contradicting themselves or these three; Watson, Frank and Rosenthal, who also contradict themselves or each other. Or are refuted or supported by the likes of contemporaries Nevil, Clarke and Beisler. Not unlike the tales spun and controversy about the origins of Haze, Cali-O, Skunk, Red Bud, and other early strains of the 1970s/1980s in California.
I have been chasing down many Durban strains around the globe since I smoked a bud back around 2004. It was a medical cut said to originate from the Durban from the SF Bay Area. I have developed a passion for high THCv stains. The issue I have about the origin stories is not really with the origins in South Africa, where it is said to have been grown by three distinct tribes there. Some of those early pre 1970 Durban landrace strains seem to remain in some collections. As for the lines developed later in California and Amsterdam, it seems that Ed Rosenthal went to Amsterdam and procured a bag of seeded Durban Poison or was given the seeds from it. He brought the seeds back to the states where he and/or his roommate in Oakland, CA (Mel Frank) grew and worked the strains for several generations. From that work, two distinct strains were developed. One Durban strain stayed local which Mel says became extinct (but I think that west coast cuts still survive). The other strain went to Watson in Amsterdam and was bred with de-skunked skunk weed. That hybrid is still sold by Dutch seed companies as Durban Poison.
As for the lack of documentation, there is some in several books and articles, but it is all after the fact and at that time weed was highly illegal in the US. It was all underground and black market, and having lived there at that time, no one wanted to advertise that they were growing weed, let alone breeding rare strains. That got you either arrested or ripped off. Mel Frank was a pen name and pseudonym, like Sam Skunkman and Jorge Cervantes. Now that weed is legal in California, you can simply Google them and find that they are really: James Goodwin, Dave Watson, and George VanPatten.
yeah, many people tell: its fatleaved, it must be Afghani. This is infact common, but is it truth, or is it prooven. it is commonly accepted that one has to work, but is it a law…?
many common acceptions, or that climate is chaning… commonly accepted, im not denying climatchange by the way, lol , but its just hearsay?
Im talking too long, im actually missing a Landrace-History thread here, i think thatss my problem.
If scientists commonly accept , thats a bit a different level, alltho still to question… Im missing scientific clearness. straight conversation.