Chemical, or Organic. What's really the best?

You are missing the point. It is all growing plants. If the status quo is irresponsible practices that is what is fucking it up. Not just big Ag not just the little guys. All of it.

A shit load of run off is from peoples lawns.

The problem is thinking that industrial chemical inputs are the best option to grow plants regardless of scenario.

Everyone has people that grow better plants than them and worse plants than them. The same science that led us to figure out the 13 elements needed for plants would have you do something along the lines of…

use clones of the same plants, have them have the same root mass, and do calculations to make the same amount of nutrients available to each. And then there would be a full lab rundown of each and then a panel of blind tasting and sensory analysis in a controlled environment.

That’s how the science part of this works. If that all you need that’s cool, but it doesn’t follow your logic. By your logic of people being attached to the idea of “vitality”, you could be attached to your crop and that is giving you the impression that it is that much superior in taste and/or effect. You would be surprised the subconscious power of emotional connection or confirmation bias.

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People have been saying the world is in disarray forever. Like…thousands of years. Shit keeps getting better, though, as a whole.

The world’s problems do not come from understanding basic chemistry…complex problems cannot be reduced to a failure to maintain the “correct” ethos. IDK, sounds like an old person saying our schools are shit because we took prayer out of the classroom.

I’m running a clone from my freakshow hydro, the original is organic soil and about to be harvested. Same lights and tent. So I’ll have a pretty close of a comparison. One will be a spring grown crop and one summer though.

You are such a small fish, but the power of the small fish is that they move in a school and it acts in someways like a bigger fish. At the end of the day corporations have nothing with out consumers.

If people with enough disposable income to have a choice, always choose the cheapest or most convenient option, the corporations will continue to win…always.

Me as an individual isn’t enough to give power to better supply chains and waste streams, but if everyone who has the means really things about what kind of business practices they want to support, the is hope for change.

No one is irrelevant. We are all part of the same system and all an equal part of it.

And yeah, plastic recycling is probably the largest grift of the century

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I am not emotionally attached to fertilizer, homes. I just like things that deliver results. Bias is possible, but trust me, I’ve seen plenty of organic weed in my day and it’s almost always lacking.

One could argue lawns prevent fertilizer runoff. A bare patch of weedy dirt has zero erosion control. We use very little to no phosphates in lawn fertilizer. Grass doesn’t need much. Y’all wanna talk lawns I know a thing or two about a thing or two, not just weed lol.

I’m very comfortable with my interface with the environment.

I’m about as low maintenance as they come and I consume very little.

I don’t do this for the environment I do it because this is the way I am.

I could argue that I’m more environmentally sustainable than anyone else in this thread even though I may or may not use synthetic fertilizer and plastic pots.

I won’t make that argument since I dont really know you all but hopefully you see my point.

And I’ve never been one to swim with the school either.

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It’s not just the phosphates Vern. The dead zone in the gulf is from a shitload of nitrogen as well. Applied at the rates recommended by the manufacturer on average approximately 20% end up as run off, if you look at application vs absorption rates for agriculture you will quickly see that often the % that rise off can be and often is much higher.

Of course any plants growing there is better than a bare patch of soil. It doesn’t have to be turf grass, wild flowers, anything. It’s funny though, if you take a patch of bare soil and leave it be, life will try to take it over. If you saturate that soil with salts, nothing will grow there. Same goes for the water.

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There’s an idea; let’s bring back bible studies!

Lol, my catechism teacher got it way worse than this, they kicked me out circa 1993; that was back in the Mexican brick weed days. I’ve matured some.

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Even though I use salt ferts, and by no means a tree hugger, our lifestyle is far more “green” than almost anybody else that claims to be green. When you build a house from dumpsters, it gets no greener than that. :+1:
From our appliances, to our windows and flooring, all from the trash. What did not work, I fixed.

So the way I see it, we are carbon positive :joy::joy::joy: even after using salt ferts :+1:

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Misunderstanding of how ag works. You don’t saturate the soil with salts…that’s not economically viable…they’re trying to grow food, not make the fields unusable. You can actually use other salts to make saline areas suitable for farming. Gypsum will displace the sodium.

Hell I could make the argument that encouraging algal blooms is a great way to sequester carbon. Ocean fertilization/geoengineering is an interesting new science.

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I’m a practicing Pastafarian, so be sure to include my god in the curriculum or you will feel the wrath of his noodly appendages!

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@MantisTobogganMD Well, I’m more accustomed to breaking rules than making them; but alright, let’s say that everyone has to eat pasta twice a week to help save the planet.

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I used a diy algae scrubber in my 200 gallon Oscar tank, worked better than anything ever. And eliminated water changes. Just add more :+1:

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Floating plants are absolute sponges. Water lettuce, duckweed, azolla…oscar would probably tear the shit out of those in the main tank though haha…I like oscars, closest fish get to actual pets.

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They do! Plants and stuff where in a seperate overflow tank.
I had mine playing fetch with a golf ball :joy::joy:

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You can have a nicely decorated tank or a cichlid…pick one.

All this nice gravel and rock and you dug out of a creek and washed and leveled just so to make the tank look natural…it goes here now.

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Lmao…exactly :joy::joy:

I understand this. I also understand the true cost of it all. There are times to use them and times to not. More often than not if you think all the way through it , the best answer is to have them as a very minor supplement.

On avaerage only absorb between 30-70% of the N that gets applied. Most applications account for somewhere between 40-60% absorption. That how N works for industrial Ag. Similar for a lawn. I intercrop clover with my turf grass and between that and my septic I don’t have to put a fucking thing on it. I over seed when I can, and let it grow long enough to seed seed occasionally. Keep it mowed. No salt and the only pesticide/herbicide used is grub control and a very, very occasional herbicide if something is a real problem that I don’t have a better solution for(becoming more and more rare).

My pony with that was it’s not salts that grow plants in nature, it’s soil. You can use salts to help soil,

No one is covering the cost of the waste stream of these salts. The water stream is the dead zones in our water ways, and it’s expensive to reclaim them from the water. It’s much cheaper to mine more. That doesn’t mean it’s the best course of action, and we are supposed to be talking about what’s best is a real world scenario.

The corporations already try to commoditization everything. When they get us to trash enough of the soil and water they can have even more control over commoditizing those. The poorest person on this planet can walk around and find a seed, plant it in the soil and grow a plant. I would like to keep it that way for the rest of my life, and hopefully my great grand holder. Etc.

How long have humans been around? How long were we able to revolve and thrive without fertilizing this way? When did we first observe the dead zone in the gulf? At what rate is it growing? It’s not hard to do the math and see how bad we are fucking stuff up, and how quickly it is accelerating.

As we and our technology progress exponentially, so does a lot of the damage it does and it’s impact on the rest of the ecosystem. We have reached a point where we have changed things more quickly and drastically than the organisms and ecosystems around them can keep up. Kind of like when dust from an asteroid blotted out the sun…environmental changes that happen faster than the organisms can keep up with.

It’s not hard math to see the true cost of this. The planet will be fine, it will still be here, evolving. Most of the creatures that call it home, including us, it will not be a hospitable life for. That’s the truth of it. The planet is fine. We won’t kill the planet. We won’t kill nature. We make it miserable for us and organisms who find similar environments comfortable and amenable to life.

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I’m only halfway through reading this thread.
But one thing that came to my mind is, I have been doing the ‘organic’ soil thing for awhile so I have learned to buy bulk amendments to reduce costs.
Let’s say I’ve spent $1000 on soil amendments and soil in the last 5 years,I still have all that soil to reuse in my bins/tent and yard and a garage and shed full of left over amendments(pic at end of post)

A couple friends started growing a little while ago and have probably spent well over $1000 in 3 growing cycles trying GH products then switching to the full 12-16 bottle advanced lineup.
They are almost out of most of the AN and will need to spend another couple hundred next grow.

Here I am with All my leftover amendments, I won’t need to buy anything for years, even then I make my own compost and have started worm bins in the last couple years so my list of things to buy gets even smaller

But I’ve tried all sorts of synthetics over the years too I’m not picky they work just great too.
I get free stuff from the hydro shop all the time and I’m not gonna say no to a ‘$70’ bottle that’s mislabeled.
My yard and flowerbeds like it all the same

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The best of both worlds organic soil and salts .

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