So you’re saying the only way to make it not cost a fortune is take on enough work to basically have a second job just so you feel a little better. The plants don’t know and don’t care where the nutes come from
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Hey why make home made healthy food everyday when you can just get fast food, it’s way cheaper and easier… and the body doesn’t care where it came from… hmmm seems logical 
The sooner we realize the symbiosis between plants and humans is closer than we think the sooner sustainable practices will become the norm 
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You’re imposing human qualities on plants, and plants aren’t people, not even close.
Our feelings on how plants should grow are irrelevant. The plant responds independent of our opinions on “what ought to be”.
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Sorry but I completely disagree, plants and humans are very close. I’m trying to get closer and connect with nature not run the other way
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Those two examples are miles apart, but nice try at being holier than thou. Fast food is straight poison to the human body. Synthetic nutes are not that to the plants they are used on. Hey a grip dude
You do you man, I’m not going have a go at you or say harsh things… I got off social media years ago for that exact reason. It’s just some healthy discourse, if you don’t agree it’s fine with me.
Peace and chicken grease
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No just making correlations that just aren’t there. Just the facts.
I think that the highest quality, fullest expression will always be in organic living soil (ideally right in the ground) under the sun. I think you can come really close with salts when done right, but in well done Organics there is a level of depth and complexity that is hard to match. I think that’s true for any plant that we consume. That being said, I understand that is the ideal, and not everyone can or wants to do that for various reasons.
From the greater agricultural And ecological perspective, I disagree with the statement that we need synthetically produced fertilizers to feed the world. I think the statement should read we need synthetically produced nitrogen to feed people as much corn syrup and shitty beef as cheaply as possible.
We don’t have the inputs because we tilled everything, created the dust bowl, and never bothered to try to rebalance the eco system of the soil. We may not have enough inputs for every one to eat tomatoes year round, or to throw out tons of wasted food that we do now. We dump fuckloads of ferts and pesticides now, and plenty of people still go hungry. Saying that we NEED synthetic fertilizer to feed the world is a crock or horseshit. Try composting all of the food the US wastes instead of dumping it in landfills, maybe you will find the inputs you need there.
Most of the fertilizer applied in industrial agriculture does not get taken up by the plant, a large majority is run off. That wreaks havoc on the soil, waterways, and all of the creatures and microbiology they contain. Not to mention, when it comes to agriculture, most of the farms using these inputs are using other short sighted and harmful products and methods.
Looking at what the plant needs and taking out the entire rest of the system is a fine way to grow a couple plants, it’s a terrible disservice to our soil, ourselves, and the other creatures we share this planet with. People always like to say we are killing our planet, the plant is incredibly resilient, was here long before we were, and will likely be here long after we are gone. What we are doing is making it much less conducive to life here for us and some of the other creatures we share this place with.
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Fast food is the same shit at the grocery store. All comes on the same trucks. That being said most people don’t crush a milkshake and a 32 oz soda with every meal so apples and oranges.
@MantisTobogganMD you could compost all the food scraps in the world and not meet the fertilizer needs of one Midwestern state. You really aren’t comprehending just how much agriculture needs. You can drive 500 miles through the US and be surrounded by endless fields. The scale is mind boggling.
@FattyRoots Just an idea built up to how nature “should work”. The plants do not care. True nature is us walking around a dusty plain trying to beat animals to death with rocks and gathering single individual kernals of einkorn wheat. All salts come from the earth in one way or another, couldn’t be more natural.
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I hear you on what the needs are currently, but I also think that after it was discovered how to produce these things, they have become a massive crutch that do a massive amount of damage. I understand, that the heart of the problem is not the salts, but how we farm in general. I believe they were a great invention, that can be incredibly helpful, but by and large are used in a way that ultimately will so far more harm than good because they only focus on one small part of the system.
Mono-cropping is one of the single largest issues, along with feeding our cows grain. You know what grows in those 500 miles of fields in our heartland? Corn and soy, largely for processing into sugar, starch, and as cattle feed. Cattle shouldn’t eat corn and soy, they should be eating grasses, which could more easily be grown in more diverse system with less inputs than the mono cropped corn and soy. We should be subsidizing farms that push for styles of farming that are more regenerative, diverse and bio dynamic.
There has been so much money and resources thrown at the current style of farming, imagine if we really started pushing to see what we could do with things like biodynamics(edit: permaculture would have been a better thing to mention) KNF, JADAM, aquaponics, etc. I know there are people doing these things and pushing them forward, but with the amount of subsidies the US gov pays for corn and soy? And all of the money that goes from theses farms that just continue to further the agenda of companies like Bayer/Monsanto?
I’m just saying, that I think once they found that they thought the cracked the code, there has been way too much using it as an excuse to work against nature rather than work along with it. I think in any outdoor soil setting, the only use of salt you could argue as responsible ecologically would be in a very limited supplemental capacity. If we would make any effort to try to farm without these things(as a whole), or even with less of them, than I would entertain the argument that we absolutely need them. As we deplete the soil more and more and just keep salting it, the food is also becoming less nutrient dense, meaning we we more food and more nutritional supplements and healthcare to keep people healthy. If we really do need to grow with primarily these just to keep the bare minimum of sustenance going, why not in soilless medium so that we can control the runoff and utilize a higher % of the salts. I forgot the exact figure, but I think it is something like 60-75% ferts end up in runoff. We use more than we need, so we harvest more than we need, and it perpetuates this cycle of destroying one ecosystem by over harvesting from it, and another ecosystem by over dumping into it. We are subsidizing our own downfall on a daily basis.
@vernal I always appreciate your knowledge based discourse on here, but I just find the argument you are trying to make here that we absolutely need them a little lazy. Even if we do need them, they are almost never used responsibly, and we most certainly don’t need as many as we use.
You can keep filling you gas tank all you want, but without other care and maintenance you car will fail eventually, even though you keep feeding it fuel, because all the components and systems that make running the car possible got neglected.
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Regenative farming practices are also some of the most profitable, look at Gabe Brown or Joel Salatin for example, most conventional farmers planting that corn or soy each year actually typically lose money… I know that’s hard to believe but it’s the truth there bushels go down each year as they kill the soil and the problems become worse and worse and more expensive.
Plants grown in healthy soil are more immune to pests and disease.
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Also, I agree completely about the crap in the grocery store. I think the CSA model is one of the most valuable things for helping change both how we eat and how we farm, which of course go hand in hand.I think that helping to spread that model as much as possible would do a great amount of good.
If anyone on here doesn’t know CSA stands for Community Supported Agriculture. Essentially, at the beginning of the season you buy a share from a farm. Each week the farm provides you with a share of the harvest, the weeks the farm does well, your box is very full, the weeks the farm doesn’t your box can be sparse. You are provided with the produce that is in season at any given moment in your area, when it is at its best, with the shortest supply chain, often on par with what you would pay at a grocery store.
You have to be flexible, but it creates a more varied and more balanced diet than many people eat, and you are rewarded with more nutrient dense and flavorful food. The shelf life on most of the produce tends to be longer than most things from the store, however certain things will be varieties that are much more flavorful because they have been bred for flavor over storage ability.
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Obviously farming could be done with far better care and stewardship. But…a pound of ground beef is gonna cost $20. It is what it is. Unless we can all handle food being more expensive, things won’t improve. I could do all my shopping at natural foodstores, buy everything organic from local producers…I have a family and that would make things probably 3x-4x as much.
Biodynamics is made up nonsense.
Yes, we absolutely need them for the modern food supply. Wishful thinking, oughta-be’s, and KNF ain’t gonna do it. You know where they do KNF still? North Korea…and they ain’t exactly well fed. I still think you really aren’t grasping the scale of use here, even if everyone suddenly went vegetarian tomorrow.
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I am from the heart of corn and soybeans country and that isn’t true in the slightest. They’re doing just fine.
So prior to industrial agriculture the soil was at optimum health…and there was never pests or crop failure? Categorically false. Boll weevils almost crippled the economy. The Great French Wine blight was so bad they had to import American rootstock. You’re thinking of a time that never existed. People didn’t just start using fertilizer and pesticides for shits n giggles.
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I grow grass fed beef of scottish highlander cattle which produce much less beef and take a lot more time, if I got paid even 9 bucks cdn a pound I’d be laughing all the way to the bank. Farmers should be rotating animals into their fields like they use to, farmers use to have a much higher bushel production than they currently do with conventional farming by using regenerative practices like no till and not putting salts on yout earth you reduce the needs of inputs and increase profitability.
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Soil in most areas was not at optimal health. Some areas have feet of top soil and out produce most farms.
Those farmers look like they are doing good but go ask him after expenses how much he makes per bushel on corn and when he tells you he lost money ask him what hes gonna plant next year. Still gonna plant corn cause that’s what corn and soy farmers do. Their trapped till the corporation takes over their farm and then they work for them instead of own their farm. This is why their is so few 100 acre farms remaining. It’s all giant companies robbing the soil.
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Either way I’m not here to discuss what’s better organic or chemical as the discussion will never end, was just putting my input from a farmer about current farming practices.
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King Ranch F250’s and the latest John Deere harvesting equipment say otherwise.
Debt doesn’t equal profitability. I know many people who have f250s that can’t afford a corolla.
Also by the way he paid for that with his government backed crop insurance.
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